The so-called "atonement" is recycled pagan "blood magic"

Dizerner

Well-known member
No, God does not need to torture his own Son to extract his blood to forgive you.

God is merciful and loving, and God forgives without torturing innocent people.

God is in harmony, the Father doesn't need his own Son's blood to "cover" people, that's disgusting, and disharmony in the Trinity.

Evil people killed Jesus, not God, it has nothing to do with using blood.

God forgives people in the Bible without any blood.

God is love, the Bible says so.
 
No, God does not need to torture his own Son to extract his blood to forgive you.

God is merciful and loving, and God forgives without torturing innocent people.

God is in harmony, the Father doesn't need his own Son's blood to "cover" people, that's disgusting, and disharmony in the Trinity.

Evil people killed Jesus, not God, it has nothing to do with using blood.

God forgives people in the Bible without any blood.

God is love, the Bible says so.
Please let me know how many more verses you need saying the same thing by Jesus who by the way is GOD about forgiving sins with no blood, no sacrifice for sins.

Luke 7:48
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Matthew 9:5
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk?'

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:9
"Which is easier: to say to a paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, pick up your mat, and walk'?

Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

Luke 5:23
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk?'

hope this helps !!!
 
No, God does not need to torture his own Son to extract his blood to forgive you.

God is merciful and loving, and God forgives without torturing innocent people.

God is in harmony, the Father doesn't need his own Son's blood to "cover" people, that's disgusting, and disharmony in the Trinity.

Evil people killed Jesus, not God, it has nothing to do with using blood.

God forgives people in the Bible without any blood.

God is love, the Bible says so.
Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Heb 9:22 - you say this is not needed
I lay down my life...no one has taken it away from me John 10:17-18 - vile people did not take His life, e ave it up
 
And the 7 passages I quoted by Jesus in my post does that make Him wrong ?

Their sins were not forgiven and He was lying to them ?

Jesus who is GOD forgave their sins with no blood, no sacrifice for sins.

Luke 7:48
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Matthew 9:5
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk?'

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:9
"Which is easier: to say to a paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, pick up your mat, and walk'?

Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

Luke 5:23
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk?'

@dizerner @sethproton
 
And the 7 passages I quoted by Jesus in my post does that make Him wrong ?

Their sins were not forgiven and He was lying to them ?

Jesus who is GOD forgave their sins with no blood, no sacrifice for sins

I think you are making a logical mistake here.

God is not obligated to specify the basis of forgiveness every time he says he forgives someone.

Why would you want to devalue Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross?

It is the very basis for all God's forgiveness.
 
I think you are making a logical mistake here.

God is not obligated to specify the basis of forgiveness every time he says he forgives someone.

Why would you want to devalue Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross?

It is the very basis for all God's forgiveness.
Not according to Jesus in the 7 passages I quoted . He forgave them their sins . You are limiting the Almighty God by a doctrine you hold and saying what He can and cannot do with forgiving sins.
 
Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Heb 9:22 - you say this is not needed
I lay down my life...no one has taken it away from me John 10:17-18 - vile people did not take His life, e ave it up
More about this:

The scarlet thread in the Bible is a symbol of redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. It appears in different stories, such as the birth of Judah’s twins, the sacrifice of Isaac, and the rescue of Rahab. It shows how God covers the sin of humanity with His righteousness.
The scarlet thread is also used symbolically in a number of purification rituals of the Bible. The two goats of Yom Kippur and the scapegoat that is cast into the wilderness are marked with a red thread around their horns.
It is true that the scarlet thread signifies blood, but not just any blood. It more specifically points to the prophecy of Jesus’ work on the cross and the blood He shed for our sins. [BingChat]
 
Why would you want to devalue Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross?
Can you specify one point in which Civic devalued the Blood of Jesus?


More about this:

The scarlet thread in the Bible is a symbol of redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. It appears in different stories, such as the birth of Judah’s twins, the sacrifice of Isaac, and the rescue of Rahab. It shows how God covers the sin of humanity with His righteousness.
The scarlet thread is also used symbolically in a number of purification rituals of the Bible. The two goats of Yom Kippur and the scapegoat that is cast into the wilderness are marked with a red thread around their horns.
It is true that the scarlet thread signifies blood, but not just any blood. It more specifically points to the prophecy of Jesus’ work on the cross and the blood He shed for our sins. [BingChat]
yes. I agree
 
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Can you specify one point in which Civic devalued the Blood of Jesus?

"Jesus who is GOD forgave their sins with no blood, no sacrifice for sins."

Read the posts, man.

Jesus' blood is not needed to forgive sins, that is devaluing it, and denying the very core of what saves us.
 
"Jesus who is GOD forgave their sins with no blood, no sacrifice for sins."

Read the posts, man.

Jesus' blood is not needed to forgive sins, that is devaluing it, and denying the very core of what saves us.
Ok, quote scripture that describes this devaluing of His blood you are teaching.
 
Ok, quote scripture that describes this devaluing of His blood you are teaching.
I believe in PSA.


1Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? אמִ֥י הֶֽאֱמִ֖ין לִשְׁמֻֽעָתֵ֑נוּ וּזְר֥וֹעַ יְהֹוָ֖ה עַל־מִ֥י נִגְלָֽתָה:

2And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? בוַיַּ֨עַל כַּיּוֹנֵ֜ק לְפָנָ֗יו וְכַשֹּׁ֙רֶשׁ֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צִיָּ֔ה לֹא־תֹ֥אַר ל֖וֹ וְלֹ֣א הָדָ֑ר וְנִרְאֵ֥הוּ וְלֹֽא־מַרְאֶ֖ה וְנֶֽחְמְדֵֽהוּ:

3Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. גנִבְזֶה֙ וַֽחֲדַ֣ל אִישִׁ֔ים אִ֥ישׁ מַכְאֹב֖וֹת וִיד֣וּעַ חֹ֑לִי וּכְמַסְתֵּ֚ר פָּנִים֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ נִבְזֶ֖ה וְלֹ֥א חֲשַׁבְנֻֽהוּ:

4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. דאָכֵ֚ן חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ ה֣וּא נָשָׂ֔א וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ סְבָלָ֑ם וַֽאֲנַ֣חְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ נָג֛וּעַ מֻכֵּ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים וּמְעֻנֶּֽה:

5But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. הוְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:

6We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. וכֻּלָּ֙נוּ֙ כַּצֹּ֣אן תָּעִ֔ינוּ אִ֥ישׁ לְדַרְכּ֖וֹ פָּנִ֑ינוּ וַֽיהֹוָה֙ הִפְגִּ֣יעַ בּ֔וֹ אֵ֖ת עֲו‍ֹ֥ן כֻּלָּֽנוּ:

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. זנִגַּ֨שׂ וְה֣וּא נַֽעֲנֶה֘ וְלֹ֣א יִפְתַּח־פִּיו֒ כַּשֶּׂה֙ לַטֶּ֣בַח יוּבָ֔ל וּכְרָחֵ֕ל לִפְנֵ֥י גֹֽזְזֶ֖יהָ נֶֽאֱלָ֑מָה וְלֹ֥א יִפְתַּ֖ח פִּֽיו:

8From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. חמֵעֹ֚צֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ לֻקָּ֔ח וְאֶת־דּוֹר֖וֹ מִ֣י יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ כִּ֚י נִגְזַר֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ חַיִּ֔ים מִפֶּ֥שַׁע עַמִּ֖י נֶ֥גַע לָֽמוֹ:

9And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. טוַיִּתֵּ֚ן אֶת־רְשָׁעִים֙ קִבְר֔וֹ וְאֶת־עָשִׁ֖יר בְּמֹתָ֑יו עַל לֹֽא־חָמָ֣ס עָשָׂ֔ה וְלֹ֥א מִרְמָ֖ה בְּפִֽיו:

10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. יוַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:

11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. יאמֵֽעֲמַ֚ל נַפְשׁוֹ֙ יִרְאֶ֣ה יִשְׂבָּ֔ע בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ יַצְדִּ֥יק צַדִּ֛יק עַבְדִּ֖י לָֽרַבִּ֑ים וַֽעֲו‍ֹנֹתָ֖ם ה֥וּא יִסְבֹּֽל:

12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. יבלָכֵ֞ן אֲחַלֶּק־ל֣וֹ בָֽרַבִּ֗ים וְאֶת־עֲצוּמִים֘ יְחַלֵּ֣ק שָׁלָל֒ תַּ֗חַת אֲשֶׁ֨ר הֶֽעֱרָ֚ה לַמָּ֙וֶת֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ וְאֶת־פֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים נִמְנָ֑ה וְהוּא֙ חֵֽטְא־רַבִּ֣ים נָשָׂ֔א וְלַפֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים יַפְגִּֽיעַ:

Penal substitution atonement/kippur right here in this Parashat.
Johann.
 
I believe in PSA.


1Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? אמִ֥י הֶֽאֱמִ֖ין לִשְׁמֻֽעָתֵ֑נוּ וּזְר֥וֹעַ יְהֹוָ֖ה עַל־מִ֥י נִגְלָֽתָה:

2And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? בוַיַּ֨עַל כַּיּוֹנֵ֜ק לְפָנָ֗יו וְכַשֹּׁ֙רֶשׁ֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צִיָּ֔ה לֹא־תֹ֥אַר ל֖וֹ וְלֹ֣א הָדָ֑ר וְנִרְאֵ֥הוּ וְלֹֽא־מַרְאֶ֖ה וְנֶֽחְמְדֵֽהוּ:

3Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. גנִבְזֶה֙ וַֽחֲדַ֣ל אִישִׁ֔ים אִ֥ישׁ מַכְאֹב֖וֹת וִיד֣וּעַ חֹ֑לִי וּכְמַסְתֵּ֚ר פָּנִים֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ נִבְזֶ֖ה וְלֹ֥א חֲשַׁבְנֻֽהוּ:

4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. דאָכֵ֚ן חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ ה֣וּא נָשָׂ֔א וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ סְבָלָ֑ם וַֽאֲנַ֣חְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ נָג֛וּעַ מֻכֵּ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים וּמְעֻנֶּֽה:

5But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. הוְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:

6We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. וכֻּלָּ֙נוּ֙ כַּצֹּ֣אן תָּעִ֔ינוּ אִ֥ישׁ לְדַרְכּ֖וֹ פָּנִ֑ינוּ וַֽיהֹוָה֙ הִפְגִּ֣יעַ בּ֔וֹ אֵ֖ת עֲו‍ֹ֥ן כֻּלָּֽנוּ:

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. זנִגַּ֨שׂ וְה֣וּא נַֽעֲנֶה֘ וְלֹ֣א יִפְתַּח־פִּיו֒ כַּשֶּׂה֙ לַטֶּ֣בַח יוּבָ֔ל וּכְרָחֵ֕ל לִפְנֵ֥י גֹֽזְזֶ֖יהָ נֶֽאֱלָ֑מָה וְלֹ֥א יִפְתַּ֖ח פִּֽיו:

8From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. חמֵעֹ֚צֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ לֻקָּ֔ח וְאֶת־דּוֹר֖וֹ מִ֣י יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ כִּ֚י נִגְזַר֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ חַיִּ֔ים מִפֶּ֥שַׁע עַמִּ֖י נֶ֥גַע לָֽמוֹ:

9And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. טוַיִּתֵּ֚ן אֶת־רְשָׁעִים֙ קִבְר֔וֹ וְאֶת־עָשִׁ֖יר בְּמֹתָ֑יו עַל לֹֽא־חָמָ֣ס עָשָׂ֔ה וְלֹ֥א מִרְמָ֖ה בְּפִֽיו:

10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. יוַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:

11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. יאמֵֽעֲמַ֚ל נַפְשׁוֹ֙ יִרְאֶ֣ה יִשְׂבָּ֔ע בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ יַצְדִּ֥יק צַדִּ֛יק עַבְדִּ֖י לָֽרַבִּ֑ים וַֽעֲו‍ֹנֹתָ֖ם ה֥וּא יִסְבֹּֽל:

12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. יבלָכֵ֞ן אֲחַלֶּק־ל֣וֹ בָֽרַבִּ֗ים וְאֶת־עֲצוּמִים֘ יְחַלֵּ֣ק שָׁלָל֒ תַּ֗חַת אֲשֶׁ֨ר הֶֽעֱרָ֚ה לַמָּ֙וֶת֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ וְאֶת־פֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים נִמְנָ֑ה וְהוּא֙ חֵֽטְא־רַבִּ֣ים נָשָׂ֔א וְלַפֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים יַפְגִּֽיעַ:

Penal substitution atonement/kippur right here in this Parashat.
Johann.
with His wound we are healed. You quoted that. that speaks of shed blood.
And what is PSA?
 
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