Why I don’t believe or accept the trinity.

[MatthewG]

You don't read properly- just lashing and snapping.

Half the things people share here are either other peoples work, and never their own answers. That is what is shocking... to me...

They just rely on other people... more than the spirit or even Yahweh... for that matter. It is sad to me, Johann. You probably didn't read properly anything I said, I try to be clear and direct.

 

[MatthewG]

Idk where in the bible it said to look to men for answers.


I guess if that is the case, we all need to revaluate ourselves in relationship to the one we claim to serve... the one whom you call out to, as Father... in Yeshuas name.

 

[Behold]

You just expect me to accept something on a dime... on a whim...

At least this time, what you learned would be true.

 

[civic]

Scripture is all about YHWH from cover to cover yet Jesus said its all about HIM, not the Father.

See this @MatthewG

When will you believe Jesus words ?

The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, not the Father.

And Christ says it’s all about Him, not the Father!!!

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


John 16:7-9
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me

John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.


Conclusion: It’s all about Him from cover to cover because the Bible is all about God from cover to cover. Why anyone would deny this obvious truth is beyond me.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Behold]

They just rely on other people..

And you post often about Preterism, because you created it.

Obviously.

 

[MatthewG]

The Tradition of the Elders
(Mark 7:1–13)

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They do not wash their hands before they eat.”

3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’a and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’b 5But you say that if anyone says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he need not honor his father or mother with it.c Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:

8‘These people honor Me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from Me.

9They worship Me in vain;

they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’d”

What Defiles a Man
(Mark 7:14–23)

10Jesus called the crowd to Him and said, “Listen and understand. 11A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.”

12Then the disciples came to Him and said, “Are You aware that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13But Jesus replied, “Every plant that My heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots. 14Disregard them! They are blind guides.e If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

15Peter said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16“Do you still not understand?” Jesus asked. 17“Do you not yet realize that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then is eliminated? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a man. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. 20These are what defile a man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile him.”

 

[civic]

yawn, irrelevant to the discussion, no point made just randomness.

 

[civic]

Jesus is the Lord in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah


Joel 2:27-32
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,

And that I am the Lord your God,

And there is no other;

And My people will never be put to shame.

28 " It will come about after this

That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

And your sons and daughters will prophesy,

Your old men will dream dreams,

Your young men will see visions.

29 "Even on the male and female servants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,

Blood, fire and columns of smoke.

31 "The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood

Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

There will be those who escape,

As the Lord has said,

Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Rom 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isa 45:21-24
Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.'

Phil 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

" AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Cor 2:8-9
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says

"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. Even Non trinitarians are forced to agree with this one due to the fact that their own theology acknowledges that YHWH is greater in nature than Jesus. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

good thing its raining so I don't have to shake the dust off my feet God provided the rain for that today.

We are dokimazo the spirits brother-time is running out.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The context of these verses is the letter of Paul to the Galatians. In this passage, Paul expresses his concern and astonishment that the Galatian Christians have quickly turned away from the true gospel that he preached to them. He is troubled by the fact that they have been influenced by others who are teaching a distorted version of the gospel.

Paul emphasizes the seriousness of the situation by stating that anyone, including himself or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a gospel different from what he had originally taught them should be accursed. This underscores the absolute importance of remaining faithful to the true message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Paul's concern is not just about the Galatians' theological correctness but also about their spiritual well-being. He emphasizes his commitment to preaching the true gospel, not for the approval of men, but as a servant of Christ. Paul's ultimate allegiance is to God, and he is determined to uphold the purity of the gospel message, even if it means facing opposition or rejection from others.

 

[civic]

We are dokimazo the spirits brother-time is running out.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The context of these verses is the letter of Paul to the Galatians. In this passage, Paul expresses his concern and astonishment that the Galatian Christians have quickly turned away from the true gospel that he preached to them. He is troubled by the fact that they have been influenced by others who are teaching a distorted version of the gospel.

Paul emphasizes the seriousness of the situation by stating that anyone, including himself or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a gospel different from what he had originally taught them should be accursed. This underscores the absolute importance of remaining faithful to the true message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Paul's concern is not just about the Galatians' theological correctness but also about their spiritual well-being. He emphasizes his commitment to preaching the true gospel, not for the approval of men, but as a servant of Christ. Paul's ultimate allegiance is to God, and he is determined to uphold the purity of the gospel message, even if it means facing opposition or rejection from others.

Amen

 

[Johann]

Half the things people share here are either other peoples work, and never their own answers. That is what is shocking... to me...

They just rely on other people... more than the spirit or even Yahweh... for that matter. It is sad to me, Johann. You probably didn't read properly anything I said, I try to be clear and direct.

You are not clear and correct-that's the problem.

The purity of the Gospel is at stake here.

Gal 1:6 I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly N1turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you N2by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.
Gal 1:7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [N1with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
Gal 1:10 Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).
AMP.

 

[MatthewG]

You are not clear and correct-that's the problem.

I don’t think the purity of the gospel is at stake here…

”Now, brothers and sisters, I want you to remember the Good News I told you. You received that Good News message, and you continue to base your life on it. That Good News, the message you heard from me, is God’s way to save you. But you must continue believing it. If you don’t, you believed for nothing. I gave you the message that I received. I told you the most important truths: that Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say; that he was buried and was raised to life on the third day, as the Scriptures say; and that he appeared to Peter and then to the twelve apostles. After that Christ appeared to more than 500 other believers at the same time. Most of them are still living today, but some have died. Then he appeared to James and later to all the apostles. Last of all, he appeared to me. I was different, like a baby born before the normal time.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭ERV‬‬


Is this not the Gospel?

”Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭KJV

 

[MatthewG]

We are dokimazo the spirits brother-time is running out.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The context of these verses is the letter of Paul to the Galatians. In this passage, Paul expresses his concern and astonishment that the Galatian Christians have quickly turned away from the true gospel that he preached to them. He is troubled by the fact that they have been influenced by others who are teaching a distorted version of the gospel.

Paul emphasizes the seriousness of the situation by stating that anyone, including himself or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a gospel different from what he had originally taught them should be accursed. This underscores the absolute importance of remaining faithful to the true message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Paul's concern is not just about the Galatians' theological correctness but also about their spiritual well-being. He emphasizes his commitment to preaching the true gospel, not for the approval of men, but as a servant of Christ. Paul's ultimate allegiance is to God, and he is determined to uphold the purity of the gospel message, even if it means facing opposition or rejection from others.

Yeah, to pervert the Gospel of Yeshua, was to revert back to making yourself right by the Law standards, and not Yeshua who makes you right with God… Paul was trying to help the Galatians in that day who were having some issues. Paul wrote to encourage and to help them continue being part of the bride of Christ which he and the other apostles were in charge over.

That was what Jesus was addressing with the elders and the traditions they were teaching, as well.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus is the Lord in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah


Joel 2:27-32
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,

And that I am the Lord your God,

And there is no other;

And My people will never be put to shame.

28 " It will come about after this

That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

And your sons and daughters will prophesy,

Your old men will dream dreams,

Your young men will see visions.

29 "Even on the male and female servants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,

Blood, fire and columns of smoke.

31 "The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood

Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

There will be those who escape,

As the Lord has said,

Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Rom 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isa 45:21-24
Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.'

Phil 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

" AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Cor 2:8-9
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says

"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. Even Non trinitarians are forced to agree with this one due to the fact that their own theology acknowledges that YHWH is greater in nature than Jesus. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!

Making a collages of wallpaper text and gluing the all together, doesn’t make it true….

Did Jesus worship Yahweh? Or did Jesus worship himself? Did Jesus make his Fathers name known?

Is any of those questions important to you? @civic

 

[civic]

Making a collages of wallpaper text and gluing the all together, doesn’t make it true….

Did Jesus worship Yahweh? Or did Jesus worship himself?

Did the Apostles and prophets worship the Son ?

Next

 

[Behold]

I don’t think the purity of the gospel is at stake here…

But you must continue believing it. If you don’t, you believed for nothing.
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭KJV

What you posted is not the KJV.

So, another lie.

In fact, that version you posted, is good for a dumpster, as its one of those corrupted versions, that creates the false impression, in those verses, that Salvation can be lost.

Notice this corrupted version says...>"if you don't you BELIEVED, for nothing"..

And in Fact, if the person has BELIEVED, then God has given them the NEW BIRTH, and they have been recreated spiritually as "one with God", "in Christ'.... "seated in Heavenly places", and have '"Eternal Life", having become a "new Creation".

So, that is DONE.. Its Finished by God.

If later, this person has a faith issue, then that is only their HEAD, their THINKING, and that has no impact on the new Birth.

= ZERO

 

[MatthewG]

Did the Apostles and prophets worship the Son ?

Next

Never seen them worship Him. He only told his apostles and prophets to worship Yahweh… just because people see the word “worship” and “Jesus not denying” is because then they would bow, in the presence of someone whom was higher than themselves… and Yeshua was from above… you’re only conclusion is that “because of people not being told not to do it” means they where worshipping him: in the sense of being God, himself… which is not true… You continue to conflate the Word, above Yahweh… and try to make them equal when they are not… no matter how many scripture you produce… you’ll never have Yahweh, setting his Word above himself… though yes Jesus is the only name to be saved, Yeshua manifest his Fathers name to the people…

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.“

Whose word did people keep? Was it not Yahwehs? Who spoke the Word?

 

[civic]

I don’t think the purity of the gospel is at stake here…

”Now, brothers and sisters, I want you to remember the Good News I told you. You received that Good News message, and you continue to base your life on it. That Good News, the message you heard from me, is God’s way to save you. But you must continue believing it. If you don’t, you believed for nothing. I gave you the message that I received. I told you the most important truths: that Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say; that he was buried and was raised to life on the third day, as the Scriptures say; and that he appeared to Peter and then to the twelve apostles. After that Christ appeared to more than 500 other believers at the same time. Most of them are still living today, but some have died. Then he appeared to James and later to all the apostles. Last of all, he appeared to me. I was different, like a baby born before the normal time.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭ERV‬‬


Is this not the Gospel?

”Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭KJV

The gospel is at stake since it’s all about Christ who is called our Great God and Savior. Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1.

 

[civic]

Never seen them worship Him. He only told his apostles and prophets to worship Yahweh… just because people see the word “worship” and “Jesus not denying” is because then they would bow, in the presence of someone whom was higher than themselves… and Yeshua was from above… you’re only conclusion is that “because of people not being told not to do it” means they where worshipping him: in the sense of being God, himself… which is not true… You continue to conflate the Word, above Yahweh… and try to make them equal when they are not… no matter how many scripture you produce… you’ll never have Yahweh, setting his Word above himself… though yes Jesus is the only name to be saved, Yeshua manifest his Fathers name to the people…

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.“

Whose word did people keep? Was it not Yahwehs? Who spoke the Word?

You are in denial .

Only God deserves to receive spiritual worship from men.


The New Testament word for worship (proskuneo) means to do obeisance, reverence, or acts of homage (see Thayer, Vine, and Arndt & Gingrich). This word is often used to describe men worshiping God: John 4:20-24; Revelation 4:10; 7:11; 11:16; 14:7; 19:4; 15:4; 1 Corinthians 14:25.


Many verses forbid worshiping men, angels, or any created thing.


Acts 10:25,26 - Cornelius fell down to worship Peter. Peter forbade it saying that he himself was just a man. God deserves worship, but men do not. (Cf. Acts 12:20-23; 14:8-18.)


Revelation 22:8,9; 19:10 - John sought to worship the angel, but the angel forbade it because he was a "fellow servant." "Worship God."


Romans 1:25 - People who worship and serve created things, rather than the Creator, have left the truth of God.


To worship any created thing - whether man, angel, heavenly body, or some other object in nature (mountain, ocean, etc.) - constitutes idolatry.


Only the true God deserves to be worshipped.


Matthew 4:9,10 - Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.


Revelation 9:20 - Idolatry is forbidden because it constitutes worship of someone other than God (Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 6:13-15; Revelation 14:9-11). [See also Exodus 34:14]


Note: proskunew is forbidden when used for obeisance to men from a spiritual or religious motivation or purpose. The word is sometimes (but rarely) used in the New Testament non-religiously to refer to bowing in obeisance to a king, master, or other person in authority (see Matthew 18:26 - this usage is more common in the Old Testament).


When used for religious honor, however, worship is forbidden toward any except God. In this sense, "worship" is like "lord," "father," "master," etc. The words may be acceptably used for earthly, physical relationships (Ephesians 6:1-9; Colossians 3:21,22), but we are forbidden to use such as religious honor to men or created things (Matthew 23:8-12). [On Revelation 3:9, cf. to 1 Corinthians 14:25]


The concept of Deity distinguishes the Creator from the creature. Things which are created do not have the unique characteristics of God, do not do the unique works of God, and therefore should not be addressed by the unique names of God nor should they be worshipped.


But Jesus received the unique worship God deserves.


He was often worshipped while He appeared on earth before His resurrection.


Matthew 8:2 - A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6]


Matthew 14:33 - After Jesus had calmed the storm, the disciples worshipped Him saying He was the Son of God.


John 9:38 - After Jesus had healed the blind man, He revealed Himself to be the Son of God (v35). The man said he believed, and he worshipped Jesus.


Note that such religious worship would have been blasphemy and should have been forbidden as it was in the case of Peter, the angel, etc., if Jesus had been just a man on earth.


Created beings also worship Him after His resurrection.


Matthew 28:9,17 - After His resurrection, His disciples worshipped Him. [Cf. John 20:28,29]


Luke 24:52 - Even after He had ascended back to heaven, they worshipped Him.


Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.


Note that men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus. The context of the above passages cannot fit the idea of obeisance to an earthly king or ruler. They refer to honoring Jesus as a religious authority - the very thing forbidden when offered to Peter, angels, etc.


Hence, Jesus accepted worship as an act of religious honor. The Scriptures, including Jesus' own teachings, would absolutely forbid this unless He possesses true Deity.


B. Glory and Honor


"Glory" (doxa) means "...praise, honor ... magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace ... majesty" - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.


"Honor" (timh) means "...honor which belongs or is shown to one; the honor of one who outranks others, pre-eminence ... veneration ... deference, reverence..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.


Like the words "power" and "wisdom," both these words can properly be used to refer to men in the physical realm (Matthew 6:29; 1 Peter 1:24). But they are also used to describe a special degree of glory which no one but God can possess.


God receives a special, unique glory and honor.


Psalm 24:7-10 - Jehovah is the "King of glory."


Psalm 29:3 - He is the "God of glory." [Acts 7:2; cf. Isaiah 60:19; Galatians 1:5; etc.]


Revelation 4:9-11 - God deserves this glory because He created all things. Note again the distinction between the creature and the Creator. [Revelation 5:13; Romans 11:36]


Isaiah 42:8; 48:11 - This glory is unique to God in that He refuses to share it with anyone else. Idols and created things have no right to receive this glory.


It follows that it would be blasphemy for anyone but God to receive this unique kind of glory. If anyone does receive this glory with God's approval, then that one must possess Deity.


But Jesus receives the unique glory of God.


John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.


"Just as" (kathos) is translated "even as" in KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV (cf. Thayer and Arndt & Gingrich). Other examples of its use in comparisons is found in Luke 6:31; 11:30; 17:26; John 3:14; 2 Corinthians 10:7; Colossians 3:13; etc.


The significance of the word, when used in comparisons, is that one item or action is just like the other regarding the aspect in which they are being compared. Hence Jesus rightly receives honor just like the honor the Father receives. And if we refuse to give such honor to the Son, then we are refusing to honor the Father!


John 17:5 - Jesus prayed to the Father to "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (NKJV, cf. NASB, NEB; others are similar - ASV, KJV). Jesus asks to be glorified together with the Father with the glory He possessed "with" (para) the Father from eternity.


The clear implication is that Jesus and the Father both possessed the same glory before the world began. Jesus, in coming to earth as a servant, did not then appear to possess that glory but appeared as a man (this is part of what he gave up on coming to earth - Philippians 2:6-8). But having nearly completed His work on earth (John 17:4) and being ready to ascend to the Father, Jesus anticipated receiving this glory again (Philippians 2:9-11).


However, we have already learned that no one but God can receive the glory God has (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11). Jesus did receive that glory with the approval of the Father. Therefore, Jesus possesses Deity.


Revelation 5:12-14 - Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them "blessing and honor and glory and power." Note that the same glory and honor belongs to both Father and Son.


Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory (or the effulgence or radiance of His glory). That glory which shines from the Father also shines from Jesus because He is the creator (v2), upholds all things (v3), and is the express image of God (v3).


1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1 - Jesus is called the "Lord of glory," just as God in the Old Testament is called the "King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10).


Note that the glory Jesus possesses is not just the glory possessed by men or angels. His glory is above that of angels (Hebrews 1:6,13). He is above all principality, power, might, dominion, and every name that is named (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9-11). No created being possesses the glory and honor Jesus does.


We have seen, however, that Jesus deserves the glory, honor, and worship of Deity even as the Father does. God forbids this to be given to any but Deity, but Jesus does receive it. This would be blasphemy if Jesus were not God.


Conclusion


If Jesus is not Deity, then who is He? To understand God we must realize that God is not part of the created things. God is the Creator, separate and far above the creatures. This distinction is made again and again in the passages we have studied. Jesus must be classed on one side or the other. Either he is a created being or else He is Deity. To say He is not Deity is to say He is a created being. To say He is not a created being is to say He is Deity. There are no other alternatives.


Men are creatures; angels are creatures that are above men. But Jesus is above the angels and is not classed with them (Hebrews chap. 1 - see especially vv 5,6,13). We have seen that He is not an angel nor an exalted man, but the Bible attributes to Him that which can only be said of God. We have learned that:


* Jesus is expressly stated to be God or to possess Deity.
* Jesus is called by names that may only be used for God.
* Jesus possesses characteristics that only God can possess.
* Jesus does work that only God can do.
* Jesus deserves worship and honor that only God deserves.


In all these areas Jesus is described as the Creator, not a created being. He is eternal, has the power, and did the work of creation. He deserves honor as the Creator. Clearly He is not to be classed with the created things but with Deity.


But we have also proved that there is only one true God who made the universe. If Jesus is "god," He is not an idol nor a false god. Since He possesses Deity and there is only one true God, then He must possess true Deity, not some lesser form of deity. He must be included in the one true God or Godhead along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.


Finally, if Jesus is God then He always has been God and always will be God, since God's unique nature cannot change (Hebrews 13:8). God cannot cease to be God nor can God lose the characteristics of God. He can take on non-Divine characteristics as Jesus added the characteristics of a man when He came to earth, and He can limit the use of His powers in order to accomplish His Divine purposes as Jesus did on earth. But He cannot cease to be God and He cannot lose the power and characteristics of God.


Jesus possesses Deity.

 

[MatthewG]

The gospel is at stake since it’s all about Christ who is called our Great God and Savior. Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1.

Oh yeah, those could be messed up text lines… you gotta remember your reading copies on copies on copies. I know you can only run to other places to make your point but even they can be moved around…

The gospel is not at stake…

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection… not trinity, or believing that Jesus is God…

There many who see Jesus as the Son of God, are they going to hell because of limited knowledge? A limited knowledge to not understand the trinity let alone, the Son of God?