brightfame52
Well-known member
Its scripture explaining scripture.
The death of Jesus was a sacrifice
- Thread starter Joe
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civic
Well-known member
No it’s twisting scripture and adding words to passages that are not there
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats how scripture is given, its spiritual comparing 1 Cor 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
civic
Well-known member
Nope another twisting of scripture since the believers in Corinth were carnal/ natural, not spiritual. You much like the carnal Corinthians do not understand the things of the spirit , spiritual truth.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear @TomL , @brightfame52 and @civic
It is true that the apostolic letters were primarily written for Christians: people who already had believed, at least intellectually, that Christ was the Messiah. People who had been baptized.
But in those same letters we can find all kind of harsh admonitions, revealing that not all those who considered themselves "believers" had been regenerated. Some Christians exhibited the same behavior than pagans. We could make a long, long list of sins of all type among those congregations. Isn't that true?
The fact that the apostles addressed wicked behavior within the churches tell us that all people need the grace of God, both to forgive their sins and to transforme our life in the long term, regardless of their formal affiliation to a religion. It also tell us that people CAN have access to that grace. Otherwise, admonitions would be pointless!
It is true that the apostolic letters were primarily written for Christians: people who already had believed, at least intellectually, that Christ was the Messiah. People who had been baptized.
But in those same letters we can find all kind of harsh admonitions, revealing that not all those who considered themselves "believers" had been regenerated. Some Christians exhibited the same behavior than pagans. We could make a long, long list of sins of all type among those congregations. Isn't that true?
The fact that the apostles addressed wicked behavior within the churches tell us that all people need the grace of God, both to forgive their sins and to transforme our life in the long term, regardless of their formal affiliation to a religion. It also tell us that people CAN have access to that grace. Otherwise, admonitions would be pointless!
But John was not telling believers to believe here
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The most likely thing is that you are right, and that the target audience of the gospel of John was the unconverted Greek.
But even if there were people who formally considered themselves Christians among his audience, they could profit from the gospel anyway.
One thing is to consider yourself Christian and a different thing to have been regenerated by divine's grace.
brightfame52
Well-known member
He was writing believers there. All scripture is written to believers or the regenerate 2 Tim 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Scripture is for the man of God for the work of ministry, not to cast before unbelievers, unregenerate. Who did Paul want to go preach the Gospel to in Rome Rom 1:6-16
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Believers already believe and are saved
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
This is a word about the need to believe
So you imagine the gospel should be spoken only to believers?
yes that is true
brightfame52
Well-known member
Only the regenerate profit from the Gospel, it bears fruit in them. Col 1:5-6
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes or them who are regenerate , spiritually alive.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats who the Gospel is for the saved. Its food to them.
brightfame52
Well-known member
To them its a savour of death unto death 2 Cor 2:14-16
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one[lost] we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other[saved] the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
Sorry no it is not the savor of death to all unbelievers
The bible does not share your views
Romans 10:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Perhaps our disagreement comes from a different interpretation of the term "regenerate"
Could you please explain what is your understanding of such word?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Who did Paul want to preach the Gospel to in Rome ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Born-again, born of the Spirit
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