Did Jesus have freewill

[praise_yeshua]

Typical response. Make it about the person, whether it's Calvin, Luther, Sproul, etc.

Just making the point. What Luther said, was within context of what HE... believed.

Which is entirely different than many of the other Reformers. You can take out "Reformers" if you like but what you believe isn't what Luther believed.

Luther greatly resisted any sense of double predestination.

 

[TomL]

The NT teaches that the born again are pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ... (after you die).

Calvin rewrote that as.. "predestined to be saved or lost" "before you are born"..

Calvin was under a few curses... one of them is : Galatians 1:8
One of them has to do with "adding to the word of God" and in JCalvins case, that would be "twisting it into a demonic theology".

So, that probably explains why John Calvin had a horrible death.

Calvin;s belief is found nowhere in scripture. He was heavily influenced by Augustine who in turn was influence by Gnostic cults

 

[civic]

Just making the point. What Luther said, was within context of what HE... believed.

Which is entirely different than many of the other Reformers. You can take out "Reformers" if you like but what you believe isn't what Luther believed.

Luther greatly resisted any sense of double predestination.

Which begs the question was Luther right with both the will and predestination or will they cherry pick them to suit their doctrine .

I say he was wrong on both single predestination/ election and the will.

 

[civic]

Calvin;s belief is found nowhere in scripture. He was heavily influenced by Augustine who in turn was influence by Gnostic cults

Ditto

 

[praise_yeshua]

Which begs the question was Luther right with both the will and predestination or will they cherry pick them to suit their doctrine .

I say he was wrong on both single predestination/ election and the will.

Yep. Which is why a person must study extensively to know the information itself.

 

[Behold]

Calvin;s belief is found nowhere in scripture. He was heavily influenced by Augustine who in turn was influence by Gnostic cults

Yes.

And if you dig deeper into the origin of "Gnosticism". You find someone who is the "Father of Gnosticism"..
This is : Valentinus.

This one almost became a : POPE.

So, yes, its all darkly connected...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Just making the point. What Luther said, was within context of what HE... believed.

Which is entirely different than many of the other Reformers. You can take out "Reformers" if you like but what you believe isn't what Luther believed.

Luther greatly resisted any sense of double predestination.

That quote was based on Scripture. Did you miss that?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

all things take place according to the immutable will of God! which they call the necessity of the consequence. Nor is there here any obscurity or ambiguity. In Isaiah he saith, "My counsel shall stand, and My will shall be done." (Isa. xlvi. 10.) And what schoolboy does not under- stand the meaning of these expressions, "Counsel," "will," "shall be done," "shall stand?"

That's not a Luther opinion. It is a fact in Scripture. God's counsel shall stand and His will shall be done.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That quote was based on Scripture. Did you miss that?

You highlighted "all things take place according to the immutable will of God! which they call the necessity of the consequence. Nor is there here any obscurity or ambiguity. In Isaiah he saith,"

Immutability is a statement of character. God's will changes.

 

[Behold]

Just making the point. What Luther said, was within context of what HE... believed.

Which is entirely different than many of the other Reformers. You can take out "Reformers" if you like but what you believe isn't what Luther believed.

Luther greatly resisted any sense of double predestination.

We can also thank Jerome for : "Protestant", as if it was not for this liar, then Luther who was also a bible translator would not have re-read what Jerome had wrongly translated, as this is a large part of that Spark that ignited Luthier's REVELATION.

Luther read and understood that Jerome has knowingly mistranslated "repentance" as "penance" and realized that this man and the "cult of mary" was false religious situation., as it remained throughout its "dark ages" that it caused, and right into Tomorrowland.

Catholics today and tomorrow, are still doing "penance" because of Jerome's intentional mistranslation.

 

[Behold]

Just making the point. What Luther said, was within context of what HE... believed.

Which is entirely different than many of the other Reformers. You can take out "Reformers" if you like but what you believe isn't what Luther believed.

Luther greatly resisted any sense of double predestination.

We can also thank Jerome for : "Protestant", as if it was not for this liar, then Luther who was also a bible translator would not have re-read what Jerome had wrongly translated, as this is a large part of that Spark that ignited Luthier's REVELATION.

Luther read and understood that Jerome has knowingly mistranslated "repentance" as "penance" and realized that this man and the "cult of mary" was false religious situation., as it remained throughout its "dark ages" that it caused, and right into Tomorrowland.

Catholics today and tomorrow, are still doing "penance" because of Jerome's intentional mistranslation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

We can also thank Jerome for : "Protestant", as if it was not for this liar, then Luther who was also a bible translator would not have re-read what Jerome had wrongly translated, as this is a large part of that Spark that ignited Luthier's REVELATION.

Luther read and understood that Jerome has knowingly mistranslated "repentance" as "penance" and realized that this man and the "cult of mary" was false religious situation., as it remained throughout its "dark ages" that it caused, and right into Tomorrowland.

Catholics today and tomorrow, are still doing "penance" because of Jerome's intentional mistranslation.

I can mostly agree with this. Augustine tried to get Jerome to leave the LXX alone. Which is something good that Augustine did. I don't promote any man above another. I believe Jerome caused many problems with his desire to produce the Vulgate.

 

[Biblelesson]

O8kay.



Your sinfulness precludes any sense of actually "being the righteousness of God." We are targeted for future improvements.



Even if this is true, it still doesn't match your claims. Abraham was faithful but he was never righteous enough to earn salvation. Salvation has value. Eternal life is valuable. Christ established the means for Eternal life.

In HIM... there life/light. There is no darkness at all.

Well yes I think we could all Guilty of the that. We don't become the righteousness of God until after salvation. When we are walking in the light fighting in Christ is when we are considered the righteousness of God in in Jesus.

It sounds like we're talking about Sanctification. So, once again, the link between the cross and the conquered sin in our lives is our Holy-Spirit empowered will. And that empowering by the Spirit is blood-bought. “God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly” Romans 5:5–6

In other words, God intends that part of our experience of sanctification be the conscious, willed, opposition to specific sins in our lives. I only say “part” of our experience of sanctification because this is not the whole work of sanctification. In some areas of sin God simply takes away the desire and the temptation is gone and we don’t have to fight that fight any more. But that's not always the case.
There would be no commands in the Bible "to serve and to put sin to death" would be in the Bible if God did not intend that some sins be defeated by conscious opposition from our wills in the power of the Holy Spirit. We can't do it on our own. Our own will towers just not that strong. That's why Jesus said it'll be better for you if I go because as believers we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well yes I think we could all Guilty of the that. We don't become the righteousness of God until after salvation. When we are walking in the light fighting in Christ is when we are considered the righteousness of God in in Jesus.

You're wrong.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Read that verse several times

It sounds like we're talking about Sanctification.

No. I'm not. Paul wasn't either in Roman 13:11.

So, once again, the link between the cross and the conquered sin in our lives is our Holy-Spirit empowered will. And that empowering by the Spirit is blood-bought. “God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly” Romans 5:5–6

No. Once again you repeat your false claim. You are sinful. In your flesh, there is NO GOOD THING..... A reckoning isn't realty. Especially a reckoning that is not complete until much later. God is being kind to you.

In other words, God intends that part of our experience of sanctification be the conscious, willed, opposition to specific sins in our lives. I only say “part” of our experience of sanctification because this is not the whole work of sanctification. In some areas of sin God simply takes away the desire and the temptation is gone and we don’t have to fight that fight any more.

Who you kidding? Temptation is common to man.

But that's not always the case.
There would be no commands in the Bible "to serve and to put sin to death" would be in the Bible if God did not intend that some sins be defeated by conscious opposition from our wills in the power of the Holy Spirit. We can't do it on our own. Our own will towers just not that strong. That's why Jesus said it'll be better for you if I go because as believers we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You are not mature enough to cease sinning. You're pretending that you're currently complete. That is what you're pretending by using the word "reckoned".....[/QUOTE]

 

[Biblelesson]

I was unable to reply to your above post it seems like our two posts that mixed together.

@praise_yeshua Said Who you kidding? Temptation is common to man.

Well yes and so it is. But after salvation God is still able to remove certain Temptations or provide a way of escape. He's given us a sound mind of renewed mind. So if you're tempted to murder someone, Heaven forbid, Your renewed sound mind might just say no I don't think I want to take the risk of capital punishment or life in prison without the possibility of parole.

See how that works? We can be led by the spirit. Once we're saved we're no longer slaves to sin. Do we still sin occasionally... of course we do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I was unable to reply to your above post it seems like our two posts that mixed together.

Sorry. I noticed that. I had a quote string out of line. I've been using forum software so long that use BB code in response. It is just habit.

@praise_yeshua Said Who you kidding? Temptation is common to man.

Well yes and so it is. But after salvation God is still able to remove certain Temptations or provide a way of escape. He's given us a sound mind of renewed mind. So if you're tempted to murder someone, Heaven forbid, Your renewed sound mind might just say no I don't think I want to take the risk of capital punishment or life in prison without the possibility of parole.

See how that works? We can be led by the spirit. Once we're saved we're no longer slaves to sin. Do we still sin occasionally... of course we do.

We still sin because we are still carnal. Babies are carnal.....

1Co_3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Jesus said very clearly....

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

We are servants of sin. I'm not discounting the presence and power of God. I am admitting (you should too) that I sin. I've sinned for many many years. I've never gotten to the point I don't sin. In fact, I've went for years and not realized that was sinning in my actions because I justified by actions relative to what the Scriptures teach. It is one of the primary problems I have with Arminianism.

Your view is traditional. It doesn't match the Scriptures.

 

[Biblelesson]

Sorry. I noticed that. I had a quote string out of line. I've been using forum software so long that use BB code in response. It is just habit.



We still sin because we are still carnal. Babies are carnal.....

1Co_3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Jesus said very clearly....

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

We are servants of sin. I'm not discounting the presence and power of God. I am admitting (you should too) that I sin. I've sinned for many many years. I've never gotten to the point I don't sin. In fact, I've went for years and not realized that was sinning in my actions because I justified by actions relative to what the Scriptures teach. It is one of the primary problems I have with Arminianism.

Your view is traditional. It doesn't match the Scriptures.

Okay so if I understand you correctly we still sin because we're still walking around in our Earthly bodies. The last part of 1st Corinthians 3:1 where it says as unto babes in Christ. I think sanctification would fit in there. I think we grow in spiritual maturity as we abide in Christ.

Well trust me brother I do admit that I still sin. But nothing like compared to the old man the one that's dead. And I can definitely agree with what you're saying about justifying my actions. I'm an expert at that.

One thing about my viewpoint is I understand that it comes from thoughts and feelings. And thoughts and feelings are subject to change.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Okay so if I understand you correctly we still sin because we're still walking around in our Earthly bodies. The last part of 1st Corinthians 3:1 where it says as unto babes in Christ. I think sanctification would fit in there. I think we grow in spiritual maturity as we abide in Christ.

As we learn we mature. Many people "abide in Christ" and never learn much of anything. I've meet 50 year old babies in Christ. We mature when "Christ is formed" in us. Understanding... get understanding in what we learn.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Conformity......

Well trust me brother I do admit that I still sin. But nothing like compared to the old man the one that's dead. And I can definitely agree with what you're saying about justifying my actions. I'm an expert at that.

One thing about my viewpoint is I understand that it comes from thoughts and feelings. And thoughts and feelings are subject to change.

Absolutely!

We must consider ourselves dead. The old man isn't dead. That is another reckoning. The more I mature, the more I see myself as lacking at so many levels.

In this, we are very similar. I share many thoughts with Calvinism. I'm probably 90 to 95 percent in Total Depravity but I construct it entirely different than Calvinism does. We are willing participants in the pleasures of the flesh. So much so, it is not an indication of inclination.

In my view, the influence of sinful men in our lives can not be overstated. This "feeding" ruins many a man and is primary cause for sin in most of our lives. However, we are definitely greatly influenced by our peccable nature.

If you will look at it from a "peccable vs impeccable" perspective. I believe you will change. Adam was peccable. Incomplete and immature ( though He was the best of us all relative to prior knowledge).

Completion wasn't about Adam falling. He never was complete to start with. The target for "Let us make man in our own image" wasn't Adam. It was Jesus Christ. That requires willing conformity. The "Willing Servant".

 

[Biblelesson]

As we learn we mature. Many people "abide in Christ" and never learn much of anything. I've meet 50 year old babies in Christ. We mature when "Christ is formed" in us. Understanding... get understanding in what we learn.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Conformity......



Absolutely!

We must consider ourselves dead. The old man isn't dead. That is another reckoning. The more I mature, the more I see myself as lacking at so many levels.

In this, we are very similar. I share many thoughts with Calvinism. I'm probably 90 to 95 percent in Total Depravity but I construct it entirely different than Calvinism does. We are willing participants in the pleasures of the flesh. So much so, it is not an indication of inclination.

In my view, the influence of sinful men in our lives can not be overstated. This "feeding" ruins many a man and is primary cause for sin in most of our lives. However, we are definitely greatly influenced by our peccable nature.

If you will look at it from a "peccable vs impeccable" perspective. I believe you will change. Adam was peccable. Incomplete and immature ( though He was the best of us all relative to prior knowledge).

Completion wasn't about Adam falling. He never was complete to start with. The target for "Let us make man in our own image" wasn't Adam. It was Jesus Christ. That requires willing conformity. The "Willing Servant".

Well that makes a lot of sense as it had to hold different meaning to where will fits in to salvation.

As far as 50-year-old babies are concerned I think Paul described them as needing to be fed milk instead of meat. One of the points of being here and being saved is being transformed into his image so that we can share Christ with others. The shoes of peace that come with the armor of God that Paul talks about in Ephesians chapter 6.

But what really hit me about your last post is about the feeling we have causing us to sin. And I believe those feelings come from the authors sin. The LIE he told in the garden insinuated that God was holding something back from them which stirred up their feelings and emotions. And those feelings and emotions caused them to sin.

So today if you listen to the wrong person teaching the Bible, And we know there's a lot of them out there. The likes of Jim Jones and David Koresh And many more. Well they definitely Negatively influenced A lot of people's lives.

Very interesting subject.

 

[MTMattie]

But actually we don't. An alcoholic may have an inclination to keep drinking but certainly doesn't mean he can't rise up above it and ask for help. So you tell me why a sinner can't do the same that is rise up against his inclination and ask for God's impartation of LIFE.

But that is his "free will" to ask.