Did Jesus have freewill

[praise_yeshua]

An alcoholic is still an alcoholic after he quits drinking. That's why you still announce yourself as an alcoholic at AA.

It's a terrible analogy, anyway. An alcoholic may do terrible things for which he feels guilty. But someone in bondage to sin, without intervention from God, does not see himself as a reprobate. The law gave commands that nobody can do on their own steam. It exposes their fallen condition.

A person isn't an alcoholic because they drink alcohol.

 

[Biblelesson]

None taken.

And I'm not saying one can give up their sin easily. My point is one can at least agree with the Creator that they need help or better put agreeing with God that they need to be born again without it said he can't do that nor would want to be.

That's great, then we're able to have a discussion. Discussions can be enlightening as opposed to heated arguments.

I agree that sin cannot be given up easily. If that were the case The Cross would have been unnecessary. We know this, only when God breaks into our lives and gives us the special grace of faith and forgiveness through a substitutionary sacrifice can we get right with God, and be called "righteous."

Paul knew that happened for the Old Testament saints. We know he knew this, because in Romans 4:3 he quotes Genesis 15:6, "[Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

So when Paul quotes the Old Testament that "There is none righteous, no not one," he means that, by nature, apart from saving grace, we are unrighteous.

No one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10–12

God alone can deliver from sin and set us right with Him and cause us to walk in the way of righteousness. Salvation of our souls is not something that we come up with our own. In other words it's not like a light comes on in our understanding and then we can see that we need Jesus.

The truth is before salvation we have a darkened mind that suppresses the truth and does not understand God.

This is where God's irresistible Grace comes in. The doctrine of irresistible grace says that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith. The Holy Spirit never fails to call, regenerate, and save those whom the Father has elected and Christ has redeemed.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Wrong just like a murderer who stops killing people is no longer a murderer and a fornicator is no longer one when they stop and a homosexual is no longer one when they stop.

Nice try though

It's not the same thing. An alcoholic has to abstain from alcohol entirely because even one drink will knock him off the wagon and he'll have more and get drunk. That's why, even after an alcoholic quits drinking and has been sober for years, he still announces to AA that he's an alcoholic. He's forever one drink away from going on a bender. If an "alcoholic" can have a drink now and then and not succumb, then he's not an alcoholic.

 

[Biblelesson]

It's not the same thing. An alcoholic has to abstain from alcohol entirely because even one drink will knock him off the wagon and he'll have more and get drunk. That's why, even after an alcoholic quits drinking and has been sober for years, he still announces to AA that he's an alcoholic. He's forever one drink away from going on a bender. If an "alcoholic" can have a drink now and then and not succumb, then he's not an alcoholic.

Correct and that is why alcoholism is the wrong metaphor to use to teach free will. Not that it's not an interesting topic especially if you like to study history. Take prohibition for example. And the problem with Alcoholics Anonymous Is that some "Higher power" Is not going to deliver you from alcoholism. Dr Bob and Bill made the mistake of taking God out of Alcoholics Anonymous To make it accessible to everyone. Whether you're a Hindu or a Buddhist or an atheist.

 

[civic]

It's not the same thing. An alcoholic has to abstain from alcohol entirely because even one drink will knock him off the wagon and he'll have more and get drunk. That's why, even after an alcoholic quits drinking and has been sober for years, he still announces to AA that he's an alcoholic. He's forever one drink away from going on a bender. If an "alcoholic" can have a drink now and then and not succumb, then he's not an alcoholic.

No when one quits a habit , addiction or sin they are no longer called those things its in the past not the present. You bought into humanism , stick with the Bible which calls it a sin.

Galatians 5- The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[simpleton]

No when one quits a habit , addiction or sin they are no longer called those things its in the past not the present. You bought into humanism , stick with the Bible which calls it a sin.

Galatians 5- The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You have made a sound argument from using the scriptures. Those who are against it have caved into the liberalism that has crept into the church and rationalized what the Bible refers to as sins of the flesh. The philosophies and wisdom of this world is nothing but foolishness to God.

 

[civic]

You have made a sound argument from using the scriptures. Those who are against it have caved into the liberalism that has crept into the church and rationalized what the Bible refers to as sins of the flesh. The philosophies and wisdom of this world is nothing but foolishness to God.

Yes indeed well said my friend

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's great, then we're able to have a discussion. Discussions can be enlightening as opposed to heated arguments.

I agree that sin cannot be given up easily. If that were the case The Cross would have been unnecessary.

Not true. There is MORE to the Cross than just sin.

We know this, only when God breaks into our lives and gives us the special grace of faith and forgiveness through a substitutionary sacrifice can we get right with God, and be called "righteous."

You're still not righteous. You prove it by continually sinning.

Paul knew that happened for the Old Testament saints. We know he knew this, because in Romans 4:3 he quotes Genesis 15:6, "[Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

Reckoned righteous is different than actually being righteous. God overlooked the ignorance of humanity but NOW demands action on man's part. Your appeals to "special revelation" has not truth within the context of Scripture.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So when Paul quotes the Old Testament that "There is none righteous, no not one," he means that, by nature, apart from saving grace, we are unrighteous.

No one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10–12

Pay attention to what you're posting.

"THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS".

Abraham wasn't worthless. Man became so defiled that even the seed of Abraham no longer cared for God. So get it right. Romans 3:10-12 details the abandonment of humanity FROM GOD.

 

[Biblelesson]

Not true. There is MORE to the Cross than just sin.



You're still not righteous. You prove it by continually sinning.



Reckoned righteous is different than actually being righteous. God overlooked the ignorance of humanity but NOW demands action on man's part. Your appeals to "special revelation" has not truth within the context of Scripture.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



Pay attention to what you're posting.

"THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS".

Abraham wasn't worthless. Man became so defiled that even the seed of Abraham no longer cared for God. So get it right. Romans 3:10-12 details the abandonment of humanity FROM GOD.

I understand how people get upset when someone that belongs to Christ makes the claim that they are the righteousness of God but if you carefully pay attention to the word of God you will see that it's correct.

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

In Romans 3:10-12 Paul continues to point out that he, like every other person, is wholly incapable of generating goodness on his own: All have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.

With this view in mind the total corruption of man’s nature, and that load of wrath he struggles under, that gulf of misery and shame into which he is plunged in his natural state Becomes obvious. But there is one part of his misery that deserves particular consideration; namely, his utter inability to recover himself. That leaves free will out of the equation.

‘No man can come unto me,’ that is, believe in me (John 6.44), ‘except the Father draw him.’ This is a drawing which enables them to come, who till then could not come; and therefore could not help themselves by free will. It is a drawing which is always effectual.

 

[Behold]

There is no unconditional predestination to salvation

The NT teaches that the born again are pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ... (after you die).

Calvin rewrote that as.. "predestined to be saved or lost" "before you are born"..

Calvin was under a few curses... one of them is : Galatians 1:8
One of them has to do with "adding to the word of God" and in JCalvins case, that would be "twisting it into a demonic theology".

So, that probably explains why John Calvin had a horrible death.

 

[civic]

The NT teaches that the born again are pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ... (after you die).

Calvin rewrote that as.. "predestined to be saved or lost" "before you are born"..

Yes he got it completely wrong

 

[praise_yeshua]

I understand how people get upset when someone that belongs to Christ makes the claim that they are the righteousness of God but if you carefully pay attention to the word of God you will see that it's correct.

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

No need to attempt to "poison the well". I'm not upset. I told you the truth. That is all.

Do you see the word "might become". You haven't gotten there yet. We are not complete.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

In Romans 3:10-12 Paul continues to point out that he, like every other person, is wholly incapable of generating goodness on his own: All have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.

Abraham didn't do good? Did Abraham turn aside?

Again. You repeating the same claim without actually dealing with what I said. You're clearly wrong.

With this view in mind the total corruption of man’s nature, and that load of wrath he struggles under, that gulf of misery and shame into which he is plunged in his natural state Becomes obvious. But there is one part of his misery that deserves particular consideration; namely, his utter inability to recover himself. That leaves free will out of the equation.

You're just repeating "talking points" without actually "discussing" any challenges to your claims.

There must be a means to salvations or no one would have. Abraham wasn't righteous ENOUGH. Get it right. He could NOT...... EARN salvation. No one can. You can establish this fact, but you can not establish what you just stated.

‘No man can come unto me,’ that is, believe in me (John 6.44), ‘except the Father draw him.’ This is a drawing which enables them to come, who till then could not come; and therefore could not help themselves by free will. It is a drawing which is always effectual.

Ridiculous. Christ died and we preach the Gospel telling others that they can be saved. What a wonderful meaning message.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The NT teaches that the born again are pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ... (after you die).

Calvin rewrote that as.. "predestined to be saved or lost" "before you are born"..

Calvin was under a few curses... one of them is : Galatians 1:8
One of them has to do with "adding to the word of God" and in JCalvins case, that would be "twisting it into a demonic theology".

So, that probably explains why John Calvin had a horrible death.

Correct. Conformity is a self defeating teaching in Calvinism.

 

[Behold]

Yes he got it completely wrong

It all started with one simple misunderstanding..
And, it could be that he knew exactly what he was doing to the "Grace of God" as this is what the Devil hates.
So, SATAN gets his best ministers to twist "The Grace of God",,,,,Into something else.
And that is what JCalvin did., as John Calvinism is one of Satan's finest theologies.
Its right there with Islam.

He took the Grace of God, right out of The Cross by teaching that the Cross is "limited"..
So, that is a denial of John 3:16, and quite a few other verses, as well as an assault on the New Covenant and the Blood Atonement.

And where JC flew off the chain and right into the outer darkness of hyper error, is right here.

He REDEFINED..."God's Foreknowledge" as "God Predestined it all".

THAT is where this Religious nut bar began,...... regarding = twisting verses to FIT THAT

Calvin's core doctrine of devils is... "God knowing it all before it happens is God causing it all to happen".

See that?
That is ......to twist "God's foreknowledge" into "everything is already predestined... by God.".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Wherefore, their ridiculous play upon words, that all things take place from the necessity of the consequence, but not from the necessity of the thing consequent, amounts to nothing more than this - all things take place of necessity, but all the things that do take place are not God Himself. But what need was there to tell us this? As though there were any fear of our asserting, that the things done were God Himself, or possessed divine or necessary nature. This asserted truth, therefore, stands and remains invincible - that all things take place according to the immutable will of God! which they call the necessity of the consequence. Nor is there here any obscurity or ambiguity. In Isaiah he saith, "My counsel shall stand, and My will shall be done." (Isa. xlvi. 10.) And what schoolboy does not under- stand the meaning of these expressions, "Counsel," "will," "shall be done," "shall stand?"

Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will (Annotated) (p. 19). Unknown. Kindle Edition.

 

[Biblelesson]

No need to attempt to "poison the well". I'm not upset. I told you the truth. That is all.

Do you see the word "might become". You haven't gotten there yet. We are not complete.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Abraham didn't do good? Did Abraham turn aside?

Again. You repeating the same claim without actually dealing with what I said. You're clearly wrong.



You're just repeating "talking points" without actually "discussing" any challenges to your claims.

There must be a means to salvations or no one would have. Abraham wasn't righteous ENOUGH. Get it right. He could NOT...... EARN salvation. No one can. You can establish this fact, but you can not establish what you just stated.



Ridiculous. Christ died and we preach the Gospel telling others that they can be saved. What a wonderful meaning message.

Well I'm sorry I wasn't referring to you, I've meant some people get upset. I've had people get upset over making that comment of being the righteousness of God and Jesus Christ.

I don't think the definition of "might become" is always a future tense. I see it as a possibility that Can happen now...if A happens then B Is the result.

God chose Abraham And what made Abraham worthy of his call. was because he was ready to hear it and prepared to respond.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well I'm sorry I wasn't referring to you, I've meant some people get upset. I've had people get upset over making that comment of being the righteousness of God and Jesus Christ.

Okay.

I don't think the definition of "might become" is always a future tense. I see it as a possibility that Can happen now...if A happens then B Is the result.

Your sinfulness precludes any sense of actually "being the righteousness of God." We are targeted for future improvements.

God chose Abraham And what made Abraham worthy of his call. was because he was ready to hear it and prepared to respond.

Even if this is true, it still doesn't match your claims. Abraham was faithful but he was never righteous enough to earn salvation. Salvation has value. Eternal life is valuable. Christ established the means for Eternal life.

In HIM... there life/light. There is no darkness at all.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wherefore, their ridiculous play upon words, that all things take place from the necessity of the consequence, but not from the necessity of the thing consequent, amounts to nothing more than this - all things take place of necessity, but all the things that do take place are not God Himself. But what need was there to tell us this? As though there were any fear of our asserting, that the things done were God Himself, or possessed divine or necessary nature. This asserted truth, therefore, stands and remains invincible - that all things take place according to the immutable will of God! which they call the necessity of the consequence. Nor is there here any obscurity or ambiguity. In Isaiah he saith, "My counsel shall stand, and My will shall be done." (Isa. xlvi. 10.) And what schoolboy does not under- stand the meaning of these expressions, "Counsel," "will," "shall be done," "shall stand?"

Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will (Annotated) (p. 19). Unknown. Kindle Edition.

Luther didn't get along with the other "Reformers"......

God word does accomplish God's intent. This doesn't by any means establish what you believe.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Luther didn't get along with the other "Reformers"......

Typical response. Make it about the person, whether it's Calvin, Luther, Sproul, etc.

 

[Behold]

‘except the Father draw him.’ This is a drawing which enables them to come, who till then could not come;

Not exactly. @Biblelesson

Let me show you how the "Father Draws"..

He, Father God, has to have something in place that does it.

This..

Jesus said..>"If i be lifted up (on the Cross) I will Draw all people to me".

Notice the "All"?

That is John 3:16... and 2 Corinthians 5:19... .and John 3:17

So....This is the effect of the Cross of Christ, as its always drawing everyone to come and be forgiven.

How does it draw?

A person HEARS about it. and "Faith comes by HEARING">..

So, to HEAR is to be DRAWN to the message that is: The Gospel of the Grace of God.

And the person makes the choice to BELIEVE or to wait. or to resist.. or to refuse.

If they continue to wait and die, while knowing the Truth, then they die in their sin, and go to hell.
If they willfully reject, then they receive the same end result.

See, "God is no respecter of persons"... He does not choose you, or refuse you.. or pre-destine you., as if he did, then God would be violating His own verse.
That's not going to happen.

God will LET YOU Decide to BELIEVE The Gospel that you heard, and if you refuse it, and die, then God honors your CHOICE after you die, just like HE honored it when you were breathing.

And so, God honoring THAT CHOICE to wait or to reject Christ, is why thousands went to hell today and tomorrow.
Many were Catholics and Calvinist's.

And God Honoring that Choice to BELIEVE is why thousands died today, redeemed by the blood of Jesus, having received "the Gift of Eternal Life", will go to Heaven.

Always remember..

God makes Christians
Calvin makes Calvinists.

These are not the same.