Peterlag
Well-known member
God is not the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
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Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, then what do you do with This Existence Of:
"The God [ of Truth ], The Spiritual Rock Of Israel"?:
"Because I will publish The Name of The LORD :ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He Is The Rock, His Work Is Perfect: for All His Ways Are Judgment: A God of Truth [ John 14:6 AV ]
and without iniquity, Just and Right is He." (Deuteronomy 32:3-4 AV)
+"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat
the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they
drank of That Spiritual Rock that followed them: and That Rock Was Christ" [ His Existence? ]
(1 Corinthians 10:2-4 AV)
Amen.
7xLightray
Member
That is correct, but I was talking about God's spoken living word that comes out of the living God, out of His mouth, that was with Him before the foundation of the world. As like when we speak our word is with us, only our word is not living and eternal, or powerful and wise enough to create all things from nothing. For, the weakness of God is stronger than men! (1 Cor 1:25)
7xLightray
Member
May this be of help to you then.
Just asking, how do these passages show a person, or that a person existed? Are you suggesting that rock was a real person? Even, if so, how does it show a person, or that a person existed in the wilderness?
Paul is spiritualizing the rock, using an allegory/similitude, to give the understanding that it speaks to us, us Jesus Christ confessors. As Paul also reminds, or teaches here in Gal 4:24; 1 Cor 9:9-10; 1 Tim 5:18, because Hosea 12:10 speaks of how God spoke to us, by plain speech, visions, and similitudes/allegories/parables, which we now have in written form.
Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
1 Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
1 Cor 9:9-10 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope
and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.
Here in your verses, notice, Moses is also a type of Christ's baptism. And the spiritual food, though not a person, is Christ, which bread/word/food/lamb/meat/flesh came down from heaven (Jn 6 eat my flesh).and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.
1 Cor 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses [Christ] in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Cor 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food [Christ, the true bread/word/lamb, that was to be eaten, from heaven],
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink [spirit/water Jn 7:37-39; 4:10, 14 and Christ is the spirit 2 Cor 3:18]. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ [Jn 7:37-39; 4:10, 14].
You do know this is how I read "Before Abraham was, I is/am/exist." And that Christ existed as the word, and the word was God, and the word was with God (and the word became flesh/body Jn 1:14; 6:51). So, if you will notice in that statment, I am confessing that the word was existing, by stating "the word was with God." The word is living (and spirit), but not a person. Grass is living, but not a person, yet it seeks out food, grows toword the light, reproduce, wilts, and dies. God's spoken word is greater than grass, it made the grass. Grass does what God told it to do, His word does what he sent it to do. I am also confessing that Christ, as the word, existed as God, but not as a person (1 Pet 1:20; Isa 45:4, 5). Jesus grew up as a human, just as we all grow up knowing nothing, but learning as we age. And, growing in wisdom, points to the person growing in wisdom, not nature.
Referring to foreknowing the person..
1 Pet 1:20 He was foreknown [not known, but foreknown] before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.
Prophecies of Christ (person) foreknown..
Isa 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you [Jesus Mat 1:21], though you do not know me.
Isa 45:5 I [the Father person] am the LORD, and there is no other [person], besides me [person] there is no God [another person who is God]; I [Father] equip you [Son, Jesus Christ], though you do not know me,
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Yet, Jesus is equal to God, because He is God's only literal son, God's only begotten, after His own kind, but born man, the spiritual man, the new man.
Peterlag
Well-known member
So you are saying our words are not another one of us. But God's words are another one of Him?
7xLightray
Member
Sort of, we are in part made of air, and Gods word is not another person, even though it is living.
We are in bodily form, flesh, God is not in bodily form, but spirit.
Air and wind, are they the same, or different? They are the same, but different.
God is like the sky, air/spirit, and wind/breath/spirit is a spoken word ("..The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" - Jn 6:63).
When a spoken word goes out of our mouth and hits a mountain, returns, and is heard in our own ear a few seconds later, is it not with us? Yes, it enters from the outside into our own ear.
what view is 7xLightray sharing? I have not been inclined to decipher his debate with the anti-Trinitarian Peterlag.
7xLightray
Member
I do not read three in Genesis.
Notice how the Plural and Singular are swapped for both God, and Man..
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us [Plural] make man in our [Plural] image, after our [Plural] likeness.."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [Singular] own image, in the image of God he [Singular] created him [Singular] ; male and female [two] he [Singular] created them [Plural].
How many did God make in His own image? Two!
And this is how God made them..
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs [And God took His word. A rib is not a person, yet.] and closed up its place with flesh.
Gen 2:22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman [and made His word into flesh] and brought her to the man.
Gen 2:23 Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh [so, Adam is Eve and Eve is Adam, and yet, Adam is not Eve and Eve is not Adam, Correct? And they made in God's image]; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man [and the word of God out of God].”
Do you understand these things? Actually it's all straightforward. Just like our children are us, not the person of us, but of our flesh.
This does not fit the Trinity doctrine (nor the Father and Son being the same person, or a heavenly created being, or Jesus just a man), but it does equal the word that came forth from God and became flesh, His son; Jesus being God (in bodily form), but not God the person. Jesus and the Father are one, but two being.
7xLightray
Member
That's interesting, and revealing, you can't grasp the concept of Jim the son of Gord, and Christ the literal son of God, but you grasp three persons, who each are God, are only one God? I take it, if this be the case, you also grasp, a person who has been all knowing forever, and cannot change, and a person who from an infant grew in wisdom, is the same person; is this correct?
Just follow the logic of child born from a parent. It's that straightforward.
Peterlag
Well-known member
You guys make up all kinds of stuff. I even had a guy tell me the word "Father" means another God. I asked him if there were 5 of me because I'm a Father, Uncle, Son, Brother and Cousin.
7xLightray
Member
Should we be concerned, I noticed you did not mention your objection?
Is this a narcissistic trait, or just a slip of the finger?
DavidTree
Well-known member
There is only One Image/Likeness of Elohim(Plural).
The FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are the One same Image/Likeness/Us/Our
Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = 3
Peterlag
Well-known member
There's nothing to object to. Nothing mentioned that is biblical. Just folks making up stuff. Words are not living things. Nor are chairs or tables.
Permit me to introduce you to the Word of God Person:
Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Let your ignorance be vanquished.
7xLightray
Member
We are being asked in Isa 40:18-20 who (so, who is the who?..), or what (..and what is the what?) is God's image. The reply is, the spirit of God is His image (verse 22), and it also says, it was explained there from the beginning, from the foundations of the earth, and He expected us to have understood (verses 21)..
Isa 40:18 To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?
Isa 40:19 An idol! A craftsman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and casts for it silver chains.
Isa 40:20 He who is too impoverished for an offering chooses wood that will not rot; he seeks out a skillful craftsman to set up an idol that will not move [man making up his own image of God, denominations!].
Isa 40:21 Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
And God's word is the image of the invisible God.
Deu 4:12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice.
Deu 4:15 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
DavidTree
Well-known member
In Isaiah ch43, you just proved the Oneness of Elohim(Plural) - thank you
There is only One Image/Likeness of Elohim(Plural).
The FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are the One same Image/Likeness/Us/Our
Let Us(Plural) make man(singular) in Our(Plural) image(singular) according to Our(Plural) likeness(singular).
FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT = ONE IMAGE
DavidTree
Well-known member
i know HIM because HE first loved me...........
7xLightray
Member
We are a creation of the living God's word, which word is obviously greater then creation. Our word also cannot create a universe. God is a eternal living spirit being. Are we? Nope.
1Jn 1:1 That which [here, it is not He Who, but that which] was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands [they did not touch the person of Christ with their hands, they touched Christ body with their hands], concerning the word of life
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life [not only is the word living, but it is also eternal], which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.
There is also.. Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God's breath must be living to give life. And a word is breath.
7xLightray
Member
You are welcome!
That would be a Singular man, which are two beings.
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
And Adam and Eve are two separate beings, but one, same, flesh.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I do not believe the Catholic doctrine that taught you to believe Jesus is God. A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
