Your Views on The Trinity

[7xLightray]

I already commented on Matthew 12:28; John 8:42; John 7:28-29.

This is what I said about Mark 12:28, "In the most important prayer, which actually happens to include the first most important commandment of all."
And then you reply with, "Quote Matt 12:28 and you'll see how Trinitarian it is."
You sure did make a comment, but it did not address what I said.

Well, okay..

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:​

The scribe understood "The Lord our God is one Lord," or "God is one Lord" as one single "He" Person!
A clear understanding of how this scribe understood it.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't think so.
No, but I would like a verse that states Jesus (not referring to the person though) did not exist before he was born. Jn 6:51 teaches the bread/word that came down from heaven is His flesh/body. And that is when Jesus became a person.

You are not asking a reasonable question and spinning it to make it seem like I cannot answer. I was not here until I was born. The fact that I was born on the earth is proof I was not born on Mars. I only need a statement that I was born on the earth to prove I was not born on Mars. I should not have to give you proof that I was not born on Mars. The proof that Jesus was not around in the Old Testament is that he was born in the New Testament.

 

[7xLightray]

You are not asking a reasonable question and spinning it to make it seem like I cannot answer. I was not here until I was born. The fact that I was born on the earth is proof I was not born on Mars. I only need a statement that I was born on the earth to prove I was not born on Mars. I should not have to give you proof that I was not born on Mars. The proof that Jesus was not around in the Old Testament is that he was born in the New Testament.

It's pretty hard to twist when one is just asking a question. How in the world is this an unreasonable question!? "May I ask, what passage, or verse, do you use for support of that statement?" to "..he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man."

All I am asking is if you have a verse, it is either Yes, or No! And I repeatedly did not get that, but I did get a runaround. That says something to me, avoidant and Projecting, especially when you make this comment, "You are not asking a reasonable question and spinning it to make it seem like I cannot answer." All I asked was if you had a verse! Asking if one has a verse is in no way unreasonable, but rather should be expected!

For the rest of your post, I understand that it is a possible explanation without a verse, but my point is, I have a verse that states "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven..So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth.."

 

[civic]

The Bible contains statements against the Trinity, like this 3-in-1 verse against the Trinity..

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

1. Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
2. Jesus cannot be the only true God that sent, because Jesus said he did not send himself! John 7:28-29; 8:42.
3. Jesus said this is what eternal life looks like for all of eternity, knowing only two, the Father and the Son, just the two persons!
Three witnesses in one verse against the Trinity! In the most important prayer, which actually happens to include the first most important commandment of all Mark 12:28.

And you cannot fit a 3-in-1 God into that confession of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the Lord said, not someone who wrote something after the time of the disciple John, who wrote, "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour." - 1 Jn. 2:18, and Jn. 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

The Bible is extremely clear that God is not a Trinity, even specifically (the number and the name Trinity, the 3-in-1 God, is in the Bible). The Bible states clearly that God is a Single Personal Pronoun, one single Person. So, whenever we read things like "Let Us make," or the plurality of God, it obviously must mean something other than another Person, because there is only one true single He God Person! That is our foundation, clearly spoken, in the New Testament!

God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14) Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12)
God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22) Jesus Christ (the Lamb)is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22)
God is the first and the last (Is 44:6, 48:12) Jesus is the first and the last (Rev 22:13)
God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6) Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13)
Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21) Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20)
God is our hope (Ps 71:5) Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:11)
God is eternal(Deut 33:27) Jesus is eternal (Is 9:6, Heb 1:10-11)
God will come with the holy ones (Zech 14:5) Jesus will come with the holy ones (1Thess 3:13)
Only God is our savior (Is 43:11) Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1)
God is the creator of the universe (Is 44:24, Jer 27:5) Jesus is (Jn 1:3)
To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Is 45:22-23) To Jesus (Phil 2:10-11)
God is the same and His years will have no end (Ps 102:27) Jesus is the same and His years will have no end (Heb 1:12)
God is immutable (Mal 3:6) Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8)
God is over all (Ps 97:9) Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31)
The spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9) The spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6)
God is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (Is 8:14) Jesus is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8)
God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1) Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20)
God is our Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3) Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14)
God is our only rock (Is 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22) Jesus is our rock (1Cor 10:4)
No one can snatch us out of Gods hand (Deut 32:39) No one can snatch us out of Jesus hand (Jn 10:28)
God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3) Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-69)
God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12) Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12)
God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12) Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19)
Gods words will stand forever (Is 40:8) Jesus words will stand forever (Mt 24:35)
God is the eternal light (Is 60:19) Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:3)
God seeks to save the lost (Ez 34:16) Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10)
Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1) Paul is a slave of Christ (Rom 1:1)
God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1) Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21)
God is our guide (Ps 48:14) Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79)
God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2) Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26)
God is called God (Is 44:8) Jesus is called God (Jn 20:28)
God is the king of Israel (Is 44:6) Jesus is the king of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:19)

 

[7xLightray]

God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14) Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12)
God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22) Jesus Christ (the Lamb)is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22)
God is the first and the last (Is 44:6, 48:12) Jesus is the first and the last (Rev 22:13)
God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6) Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13)
Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21) Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20)
God is our hope (Ps 71:5) Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:11)
God is eternal(Deut 33:27) Jesus is eternal (Is 9:6, Heb 1:10-11)
God will come with the holy ones (Zech 14:5) Jesus will come with the holy ones (1Thess 3:13)
Only God is our savior (Is 43:11) Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1)
God is the creator of the universe (Is 44:24, Jer 27:5) Jesus is (Jn 1:3)
To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Is 45:22-23) To Jesus (Phil 2:10-11)
God is the same and His years will have no end (Ps 102:27) Jesus is the same and His years will have no end (Heb 1:12)
God is immutable (Mal 3:6) Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8)
God is over all (Ps 97:9) Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31)
The spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9) The spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6)
God is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (Is 8:14) Jesus is a stone of offence and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8)
God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1) Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20)
God is our Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3) Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14)
God is our only rock (Is 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22) Jesus is our rock (1Cor 10:4)
No one can snatch us out of Gods hand (Deut 32:39) No one can snatch us out of Jesus hand (Jn 10:28)
God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3) Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-69)
God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12) Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12)
God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12) Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19)
Gods words will stand forever (Is 40:8) Jesus words will stand forever (Mt 24:35)
God is the eternal light (Is 60:19) Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:3)
God seeks to save the lost (Ez 34:16) Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10)
Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1) Paul is a slave of Christ (Rom 1:1)
God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1) Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21)
God is our guide (Ps 48:14) Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79)
God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2) Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26)
God is called God (Is 44:8) Jesus is called God (Jn 20:28)
God is the king of Israel (Is 44:6) Jesus is the king of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:19)

That is all great stuff, but does not address this..

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.​

1. Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
2. Jesus cannot be the only true God that sent, because Jesus said he did not send himself! John 7:28-29; 8:42.
3. Jesus said this is what eternal life looks like for all of eternity, knowing only two, the Father and the Son, just the two persons!

The Bible states clearly that God is a Single Personal Pronoun, one single Person. So, whenever we read things like "Let Us make," or the plurality of God, it obviously must mean something other than another Person, because there is only one true single He God Person!
I did not say Jesus is not called God, what I have said, is Jesus is not the only true God Person, because Jesus is God's only literal begotten son.

 

[civic]

That is all great stuff, but does not address this..

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.​

1. Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
2. Jesus cannot be the only true God that sent, because Jesus said he did not send himself! John 7:28-29; 8:42.
3. Jesus said this is what eternal life looks like for all of eternity, knowing only two, the Father and the Son, just the two persons!

The Bible states clearly that God is a Single Personal Pronoun, one single Person. So, whenever we read things like "Let Us make," or the plurality of God, it obviously must mean something other than another Person, because there is only one true single He God Person!
I did not say Jesus is not called God, what I have said, is Jesus is not the only true God Person, because Jesus is God's only literal begotten son.

John 17:3 Jesus makes Himself equal with the Father with eternal life.

 

[7xLightray]

John 17:3 Jesus makes Himself equal with the Father with eternal life.

You do understand that still does not answer my points? Yes, He is equal to the Father, but that does not make Him the Father. Just as Jesus is equal to God, but that does not make Him the only true God the Father person. Not to mention we also will posses eternal life as even the angels have.

Here, Jerusalem is called ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’ Does that mean Jerusalem is God? No!
Jer. 33:16 In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’

 

[civic]

You do understand that still does not answer my points? Yes, He is equal to the Father, but that does not make Him the Father. Just as Jesus is equal to God, but that does not make Him the only true God the Father person. Not to mention we also will posses eternal life as even the angels have.

Here, Jerusalem is called ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’ Does that mean Jerusalem is God? No!
Jer. 33:16 In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’

I never claimed He was the Father

 

[Peterlag]

It's pretty hard to twist when one is just asking a question. How in the world is this an unreasonable question!? "May I ask, what passage, or verse, do you use for support of that statement?" to "..he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man."

All I am asking is if you have a verse, it is either Yes, or No! And I repeatedly did not get that, but I did get a runaround. That says something to me, avoidant and Projecting, especially when you make this comment, "You are not asking a reasonable question and spinning it to make it seem like I cannot answer." All I asked was if you had a verse! Asking if one has a verse is in no way unreasonable, but rather should be expected!

For the rest of your post, I understand that it is a possible explanation without a verse, but my point is, I have a verse that states "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven..So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth.."

Why would God write that down so I can give it to you in a verse? Write something that makes no sense. There is no verse that says I was not alive before the world was founded. So when God says He knew me before the foundations of the world. That can only mean He had me in His planning. I should not need to find a verse that says I was not around at the time of the foundation of the earth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I never claimed He was the Father

Dear friend. Tell me if you accept my challenge. It's a friendly one.

I will bring our readers 100 (one hundred) verses in which "God" and "Jesus Christ" are presented as persons who are distinct from each other.
You will bring our readers one verse in which "God" and "The Father" are presented as persons who are distinct from each other.

 

[civic]

Dear friend. Tell me if you accept my challenge. It's a friendly one.

I will bring our readers 100 (one hundred) verses in which "God" and "Jesus Christ" are presented as persons who are distinct from each other.
You will bring our readers one verse in which "God" and "The Father" are presented as persons who are distinct from each other.

why would I take a loaded challenged that favors you ?

thats like me challenging you to find just one verse where the " Father " says " I Am God ".

its a loaded challenge in my favor just like your proposal.

 

[7xLightray]

I never claimed He was the Father

I did not, nor am I, saying you did, I was making a point.
Which was, just because Jesus is equal to God, it does not make Jesus the only true God (and this verse specifically shows "only true God" is referring to the Father Person). Just like, Jesus is equal to the Father (as you stated), but that does not make Jesus the Father Person.

 

[civic]

I did not, nor am I, saying you did, I was making a point.
Which was, just because Jesus is equal to God, it does not make Jesus the only true God (and this verse specifically shows "only true God" is referring to the Father Person). Just like, Jesus is equal to the Father (as you stated), but that does not make Jesus the Father Person.

and 1 John 5:20 we have the Apostle John calling Jesus the True God and Eternal life.

 

[7xLightray]

Why would God write that down so I can give it to you in a verse? Write something that makes no sense. There is no verse that says I was not alive before the world was founded. So when God says He knew me before the foundations of the world. That can only mean He had me in His planning. I should not need to find a verse that says I was not around at the time of the foundation of the earth.

I was not asking for a verse that says "I was not alive before the world was founded," nor "I was not around at the time of the foundation of the earth." I was asking about a verse, or passage, that speaks of being a plan in God's mind. Which on the same level I asked of you, I have this verse Isa. 55:10-11 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven..So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth.." That states it pretty straightforward! Jesus is the word that came down from heaven. And by which word God created all things.

All things were made through him [the word Jn 1:1; Psa 33:6; Prov 8:22-31], and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:3
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. - Psa 33:6

 

[7xLightray]

and 1 John 5:20 we have the Apostle John calling Jesus the True God and Eternal life.

Person, Person! Only true God Person! Jesus is the true God, but not the only true God Person. Because in this sense, Jesus flesh, His body, is the word which was God, but Jesus is not the only true God Person, which is the Father. This is without mentioning Christ character. And, the word which was God, could not be referring to the Person of God, because the word became the flesh/body of Christ.

1 Jn. 5 and verse 20 is talking about the character of God, and the eternal life is referring to that way of life (inside and out), because that is God. And Christ being the true God, is referring to Jesus being the perfect image of God's character. While I do not disagree with that verse, it is not related to my point of "just because Jesus is equal to God, it does not make Jesus the only true God (and this verse specifically shows "only true God" is referring to the Father Person)".

 

[DavidTree]

To those outside the Christian faith, the doctrine of the Trinity seems a very strange teaching indeed. It seems to violate logic, for it claims that God is three and yet that he is one. How can this be? And why would the church propound such a doctrine? It does not appear to be taught in Scripture, which is the Christian’s supreme authority in matters of faith and practice. And it presents an obstacle to faith for those who otherwise might be inclined to accept the Christian faith. Is it a teaching that perhaps was a mistake in the first place, and certainly is a hindrance and an embarrassment to Christianity? Could it be omitted from Christian faith and theology, without any loss and even with considerable gain? I submit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of great importance in our time, and therefore needs to be examined carefully, for several reasons.

First, this doctrine historically was the first that the church felt it necessary to elaborate in a definitive fashion. The church began preaching its message, which entailed the deity of Jesus as well as that of the Father. It had not thoroughly worked out the nature of the relationship between these two persons, however. Christians simply assumed that both were God. Soon some persons began to raise questions regarding just what this meant. The proposals they made in attempting to give some concrete content did not sound totally correct to many Christians, however, so a more complete explanation was worked out. This became the full doctrine of the Trinity, that all three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are divine, but that they are not three Gods, but one. It was deemed essential to the life of the church to hold this doctrine of God’s three-in-oneness.

It was not simply the church of the third and fourth centuries that encountered challenges to this view. Although more than fifteen centuries have gone by since the church took its stand, there are still varieties of Christianity that deny the Trinity. This is still very much an issue in our time, as groups such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses dispute the full deity of Jesus and thus the doctrine of the Trinity. Numerous cults and sects reject this view, as do some liberal Christians within better known Christian denominations.


Making Sense of the Trinity

The TRI-UNE God is the very Foundation of the Bible beginning in Genesis

 

[Peterlag]

I was not asking for a verse that says "I was not alive before the world was founded," nor "I was not around at the time of the foundation of the earth." I was asking about a verse, or passage, that speaks of being a plan in God's mind. Which on the same level I asked of you, I have this verse Isa. 55:10-11 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven..So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth.." That states it pretty straightforward! Jesus is the word that came down from heaven. And by which word God created all things.

All things were made through him [the word Jn 1:1; Psa 33:6; Prov 8:22-31], and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:3
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. - Psa 33:6

Since I was not around before the foundations of the world and yet God said He knew me from before the foundation of the world. Then what could that possible mean? Other than I was in God's mind before I was born.

 

[7xLightray]

Since I was not around before the foundations of the world and yet God said He knew me from before the foundation of the world. Then what could that possible mean? Other than I was in God's mind before I was born.

Yes, but we are not the eternal living word. I have a better one for you, "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world.. (1 Pet 1:20), but that does not mean the eternal living word of God, that came forth out His mouth, did not exist before the foundation of the world. And if the word is God, and God is spirit, then the word is spirit (wind/breath/the spirit of God. Gen. 1:2) that was brought forth, and with/beside God (Gen. 1:2, 26, 27; Prov 8:22-30). The person of Christ did not exist at this time, not until the word became flesh.

This would be why you would need a verse that talked about "..he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man," because I have verses, and they tell a different story.

 

[mikesw]

Mike says: is there no one around here who is ready to make an argument against the Triune nature of God

I guess not

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

why would I take a loaded challenged that favors you ?

thats like me challenging you to find just one verse where the " Father " says " I Am God ".

its a loaded challenge in my favor just like your proposal.

Why would you call my challenge loaded, when your challenge is infinitely more loaded?
Look: I am not asking you to provide any exact wording for your single example.
You, in contrast, are asking an exact wording… knowing that the New Testament does not present the entity “The Father” saying anything about Himself.

So, how could we review the declarations of “the Father” about Himself, if there are no declarations to review?

In contrast, we have several declarations from Jesus, and several declarations from the apostles, about who The Father is.
Such declarations exist, and are ready for our review. I challenge you to review them and find one that treats God and The Father as separate persons, or minds, or wills, or beings.

***
In any case, I will be glad to accept your challenge, if you drop your request of an exact wording, since I am not requesting from you an exact wording.
I think that would be fair for both of us.