Why The Trinity is Wrong: Language Usage

[Wrangler]

This is how language works. “God” in his singular, unitarian nature is the subject of John 3:16, doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. And this leads us to Jesus’ title. Messiah, which means Christ, which means Anointed. Jesus is the object of the Anointing. God, in his singular, unitarian nature, does the Anointing; Jesus is Anointed by God.

Going back to the confusing subterfuge trinitarians like to leverage AS IF “the Father” is anyone other than the only true God of Scripture; The Bible repeatedly and explicitly states ‘God the Father.’ Not one time is “God, the Holy Spirit” or “God, the Son” stated in Scripture. The absence of such explicit teaching in Scripture proves it’s a non-trinitarian story. See Mark 7:13 & 2 Cor 1:13 (NLT).

Agency. Much of the Bible is told through agency, one being/person doing things through another. Examples include both angels and God were speaking at the burning bush and the destroyer of Sodom and Gomorrah. God apparently delegated forgiving sins to Jesus, who in turn, delegated it to the Apostles. Forgiving sin is divine but does not make one a deity. Isaiah said ‘I am the first and the last’ as did Jesus. This is what prophets do, speak on behalf of God. It does not make them God. God’s agents are NOT God.

We speak this way today. People say Hitler killed 4M Jews. He actually killed no one. So, we credit/blame the commander for the actions of those he commands. None of those who killed on Hitler’s command are Hitler. Agency.

 

[Fred]

Not one time is “God, the Holy Spirit” or “God, the Son” stated in Scripture. The absence of such explicit teaching in Scripture proves it’s a non-trinitarian story. See Mark 7:13 & 2 Cor 1:13 (NLT).

There is more than one way to express a truth claim.

Agency. Much of the Bible is told through agency, one being/person doing things through another. Examples include both angels and God were speaking at the burning bush and the destroyer of Sodom and Gomorrah. God apparently delegated forgiving sins to Jesus, who in turn, delegated it to the Apostles. Forgiving sin is divine but does not make one a deity. Isaiah said ‘I am the first and the last’ as did Jesus. This is what prophets do, speak on behalf of God. It does not make them God. God’s agents are NOT God.

You are confused about Agency.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-trinity-made-easy.87/page-5#post-3497

 

[Wrangler]

There is more than one way to express a truth claim.

True but not expressing a truth is not equal to an explicit expression of truth. Only "God the Father" is in Scripture because he is the only God. Jesus affirms this in John 17:3. Why can't you accept this simple truth?

You are confused about Agency.

No, I'm not.

Agency is Language Usage that we use to this day. 2 decades ago during a government "shut down" the news reported that President George W. Bush was still going to issue Social Security checks. No rational person presumed that meant he was actually the one printing the checks, licking the envelopes and putting them in the mail. Agency. So simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

The trinitarian hope is to convince themselves Scripture uses language in a unique way. What is hilarious about this is how the Bible is the ultimate source of the most explicit way of communicating in all of human history - God literally putting his commands in stone. This contrasts with trinitarians exegesis, where everything is hinted at, in a form, a reflection, possibly implied and if you cobble together a dozen verses, you get something that looks like "support" for a 4th century man-made doctrine.

It really is embarrassing for trinitarians to compile the Apostolic writings only to find there is no trinity verse in any of the 66 books. How embarrassing.

 

[Fred]

True but not expressing a truth is not equal to an explicit expression of truth. Only "God the Father" is in Scripture because he is the only God. Jesus affirms this in John 17:3. Why can't you accept this simple truth?

Your confusion concerning John 17:3 was already addressed.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-trinity-made-easy.87/page-11#post-4386

Your confusion about Agency was already addressed.
An "Agent" is not needed when it comes to prayer.

 

[Wrangler]

Your confusion concerning John 17:3 was already addressed.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-trinity-made-easy.87/page-11#post-4386

Your confusion about Agency was already addressed.
An "Agent" is not needed when it comes to prayer.

There is no confusion about John 17:3. Asking questions about Jude 4 is no "address" of Jesus saying only our Father is the true God. What you invent to explain away simple truths is amazing. Mental gymnastics.

 

[Fred]

There is no confusion about John 17:3. Asking questions about Jude 4 is no "address" of Jesus saying only our Father is the true God.

The same Greek word for "only" that is used in John 17:3 is found in Jude 4.
You affirmed that in Jude 4 "only" refers to Jesus.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-the-trinity-is-wrong-pronouns.203/page-3#post-4323

So does that cancel out the Father from being the "Master" (despotēs) of every Christian (cf. Acts 4:24)?

 

[Wrangler]

The same Greek word for "only" that is used in John 17:3 is found in Jude 4.
You affirmed that in Jude 4 "only" refers to Jesus.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-the-trinity-is-wrong-pronouns.203/page-3#post-4323

So does that cancel out the Father from being the "Master" (despotēs) of every Christian (cf. Acts 4:24)?

What a convoluted question. I cannot even understand what you are asking. Jesus is not God. Only YHWH is God per Duet 6:4. Do you want to play word games with the Hebrew word "only" now?

 

[synergy]

Agency. Much of the Bible is told through agency, one being/person doing things through another. Examples include both angels and God were speaking at the burning bush and the destroyer of Sodom and Gomorrah. God apparently delegated forgiving sins to Jesus, who in turn, delegated it to the Apostles. Forgiving sin is divine but does not make one a deity. Isaiah said ‘I am the first and the last’ as did Jesus. This is what prophets do, speak on behalf of God. It does not make them God. God’s agents are NOT God.

We speak this way today. People say Hitler killed 4M Jews. He actually killed no one. So, we credit/blame the commander for the actions of those he commands. None of those who killed on Hitler’s command are Hitler. Agency.

You're falling into the same error again and again when it comes to Jesus. The Word of God was God (John 1:1) and still is. John 1:1 is undeniable and clear. Show me where it says that the Word of God cannot be a representative of God. In fact, the Word of God tells you clearly that whoever has seen Him (Jesus) has seen the Father (John 14:9).

 

[Wrangler]

You're falling into the same error again and again when it comes to Jesus. The Word of God was God (John 1:1) and still is. John 1:1 is undeniable and clear.

Notice John 1:1 does not even say Jesus? Where do trinitarians get off supposing John 1:1 is referring to a person rather than the literal word of God? See Deut. 18:15-18.

 

[Wrangler]

Show me where it says that the Word of God cannot be a representative of God.

I agree. Anyone can represent God’s word; it just does not make them God. This is agency.

 

[synergy]

Notice John 1:1 does not even say Jesus? Where do trinitarians get off supposing John 1:1 is referring to a person rather than the literal word of God?

Read John 1:14.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Which person do you suppose John is pointing to when he said that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us?

See Deut. 18:15-18.

State your case clearly. How does it promote Arianism?

 

[Wrangler]

Read John 1:14.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

Right. That is in keeping with Deut 18:15-18. God put his words into one of the people he choose.

Notice how John 1:14 does NOT say that God became flesh?

 

[Fred]

Right. That is in keeping with Deut 18:15-18. God put his words into one of the people he choose.

Notice how John 1:14 does NOT say that God became flesh?

Deuteronomy 18:15 is quoted by Stephen in Acts 7:37, and Stephen knew this meant Jesus is God in that he properly prayed to Him in Acts 7:59-60.

 

[Wrangler]

State your case clearly. How does it promote Arianism?

Jesus is one of the people God put his words in Jesus’ mouth. The one among the people that Moses told us about. John 1:45

Only YHWH is God per Scripture. We relate to him as our Father. This why there is only ‘God the Father’ in Scripture and not the other 2 in the trinity; no god the son or god the HS. Because there is only one God and his name is not Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Deuteronomy 18:15 is quoted by Stephen in Acts 7:37, and Stephen knew this meant Jesus is God in that he properly prayed to Him in Acts 7:59-60.

Nonsense. Stephen say at his death that he sees Jesus at the right hand of God.

 

[Fred]

Nonsense. Stephen say at his death that he sees Jesus at the right hand of God.

Which proves Jesus isn't the Father. Great.

You ignored the praying to Him part which proves He is God.

 

[Wrangler]

Which proves Jesus isn't the Father. Great.

It is great because Scripture says only the Father is God.

You ignored the praying to Him part which proves He is God.

People pray to each other all the time. Doesn’t mean they’re God.

 

[Fred]

People pray to each other all the time. Doesn’t mean they’re God.

Are you a Roman Catholic?

Who is the most previous person you prayed to?

 

[Wrangler]

Are you a Roman Catholic?

Who is the most previous person you prayed to?

Probably my parents.

It is a trinitarian invention that pray is only to God AS IF it is a word that does not also means ask and most people ask other people for stuff.

Using pray in this sense was commin at the time of the Shakespearean era, when the king James version came out.

 

[Fred]

Probably my parents.

It is a trinitarian invention that pray is only to God AS IF it is a word that does not also means ask and most people ask other people for stuff.

Using pray in this sense was commin at the time of the Shakespearean era, when the king James version came out.

Difference is (and a massive one) Jesus (because He is God) is able to hear even silent prayers - by multiple people, all at once and at different times, and in multiple languages.

Your so-called prayers to your parents don't compare with Jesus.

According to 1 Kings 8:39 who alone knows the hearts of all people?