civic
Well-known member
I resemble that remark every morning after my 2 double shots of espresso at 4-5 am.
Why The Trinity is Wrong: Lord v LORD
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
In the interest of sharing thoughts and opinions, which I'm always for, I would appreciate if @Wrangler is more revealing in what he actually believes. If he thinks that Jesus is a "container" then he needs to say so right from the start. This is fundamental to our discussions, and it is the first time I'm hearing that in his "deception" accusing comment. It shouldn't be that way. Vital beliefs/understandings like this need to be revealed so that we don't end up wasting time on what was a semantics/definition problem all along.
As for the word "deception", since you're asking, I would vote to remove it totally with no replacement. That's your call and I'll respect whatever decision you make.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Jesus is not God. This is the case no matter how you word the question. Jesus is only the only begotten (created) son of God. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Wrangler
Well-known member
LOL. I’ve been crystal clear what my thoughts and opinions are in exacting and explicit fashion.
Simply put, the Bible is monotheist text. Every single attempt to impose a trinitarian exegesis can be dismissed with simple monotheist interpretation, e.g,. Jesus being a container, which succinctly - and SIMPLY - explains why the text says things like God’s Spirit dwells Christ.
I'll take you up on your desire to be "crystal clear". I know very little about Unitarianism so, as a start, I'll start with these observations and questions:
What we know already of the Word of God in the OT:
In the OT, the Word of God communicated as a Divine Person. See 1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3:
- 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
- 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"
Therefore, the Word of God is a person and He is Uncreated (He existed before creation which includes Angels).
Question #1: To whom was the Unitarian God speaking his Word to for all eternity before creation?
Trinitarians are clear on the Hypostatic Union of Christ. @civic has a whole article on that and can help out if questions arise.
Question #2: Tell us the high points as to how the Unitarian Word (the "contents") combines Himself with Jesus (the "container").
Question #3: How is the Unitarian Word/Jesus union different than the Holy Spirit/Jesus union at Jesus' Baptism?
Question #4: If Jesus is not God and since only God saves then how can Jesus save us from our sins as per Matt 1:21?
(Matt 1:21) "And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus: for He shall save His people from their sins."
Finally, the Utilitarian "container" view seems very similar to Muhammad in how he was the vessel for the Islamic god's word.
Question #5: How is the Muhammad situation different than the situation with the Utilitarian Jesus?
I will bank on @Johann's knowledge in this area.
Last edited:
Here is the Islamic version-
Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur'an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason.
In a rare instance of classic kalâm reasoning, Imam Malik gave the most succinct[sic] statement of this doctrine: "The Qur'an is the Speech of Allah, the Speech of Allah comes from Him, and nothing created comes from Allah Most High." Narrated by al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:416). (G.F. Haddad, The Uncreatedness of the Divine Speech: The Glorious Qur'an)
It is amazing that these Muslims could not see how the same reasoning which led them to conclude that the Quran is not created can be used more forcefully to prove that Christ himself must also be uncreated.
After all, the Quran itself testifies that Jesus is Allah’s Speech/Word and Spirit which came directly from Allah:
O ye who have received the scriptures, exceed not the just bounds in your religion, neither say of God [any other] than the truth. Verily Christ Jesus the son of Mary [is] the apostle of God, and his word (wa-kalimatuhu), which he conveyed into Mary, and a spirit [proceeding] FROM him (wa-roohun minhu). Believe therefore in God, and his apostles, and say not, [there are] three [Gods]; forbear [this]; it will be better for you. God is but one God. Far be it from him that he should have a son. Q. 4:171 Sale
The angels said, ‘Mary, God gives you news of a Word FROM Him (bi-kalimatin minhu), whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God. S. 3:45 Sale – cf. Q. 3:39
Here is how another English version translates this verse:
“Behold,” the angels told Mary, “God has given you the glad news of the coming birth of a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God.” Muhammad Sarwar
The Muslim scripture further claims that Jesus is a Mercy from Allah for mankind:
And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us (wa-rahmatan minna), and it is a thing ordained. S. 19:16-21 Pickthall
If the Muslims were to consistently apply their logic at this point then this is the conclusion which they would come to concerning the Person of Christ:
Jesus is the Speech/Word, Spirit, and Mercy of/from Allah.
Allah’s Speech/Word, Spirit and Mercy come directly from Allah.
Nothing created comes from Allah.
Therefore, Jesus must have always existed!
What makes this even more amazing is that the Quran is nowhere explicitly called Allah’s word. In fact, a Muslim will not be able find within their respective scripture a verse which says that the Quran is the word of Allah in those exact words. This is an inference drawn from a few texts, such as the following:
And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. S. 9:6 Pickthall
And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. S. 18:27 Y. Ali
However, these texts are not as clear as the passages in the Quran where Jesus is unambiguously identified as “a Word from Allah” or “His [Allah’s] Word”.
In light of this, how much more would the reasoning employed by Muslims to establish that the Quran is uncreated apply to Christ when he is explicitly said to be the very Word of Allah and a Spirit and Mercy which directly came from him!
It is evident why Muslims are hesitant to use this logic to conclude that Jesus’ personal existence also has no beginning like the Quran. The Islamic scripture claims that Christ is nothing more than a servant:
Jesus is no more than a servant whom we favoured, and proposed as an instance of divine power to the children of Israel. S. 43:59 Rodwell
Yet, in saying this, the Quran is merely contradicting itself since it clearly testifies that Jesus is much more than a mere slave. He is also the Messiah, the Word of Allah and His Mercy and Spirit which was sent to Mary, as well as a mighty miracle working Apostle who could give life to inanimate objects by simply breathing into them, such as birds which he would cause to come alive after creating them from clay.
As it stands, the Quran clearly bears witness to the uncreated essence and the eternal prehuman existence of Christ since it identifies him as the Speech/Word of Allah, as well as a Spirit and Mercy which comes directly from him. According to Muslims, Allah’s Speech/Word is uncreated since it comes from him, and anything which comes from him cannot be created. Hence, since Jesus is Allah’s Word, as well as a Spirit and Mercy from Allah, he must be uncreated as well.
Hence, if Muslims are going to apply their logic consistently then there’s simply no way for them to get around this argument.
Now that’s the real question, whether Muslims will be consistent or not. If they do then they will have no choice but to embrace Jesus Christ as their very Lord God and Savior.
Our prayer is that God’s sovereign Spirit will enable them to be consistent in their reasoning so as to come to the point where they confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus had no beginning
The Uniqueness and Titles of Jesus in Islam
I have 2 Qurans affirming the deity of Christ Jesus-not only is it helpful to read rabbinical sources-but also the Quran @synergy.
It would be helpful if the @Administrator can create a thread on Islam.
Shalom
Johann
Will do and I'll move this post there.
Thank you very much for all that information. It is true that the Word of God is uncreated but let's look at everything from a person point of view.
First of all, the Theophanies of the OT clearly demonstrate that the Word of God is a Person.
Second of all, as was Muhammad his own human person then i believe the Unitarian Jesus is also his own human person.
This would make for two persons in the Unitarian container/contents union and for Muhammad also.
We're now talking about a two headed monstrosity, a two personality schizophrenic. That's why Islam cannot accept that the Word of God is a person and neither can Unitarianism.
The Christian Faith solves that by saying that there is only one person in the union, namely the Word of God, Who assumed human nature in the Incarnation but remained one person all along.
So the fundamental point is: is the Word of God a distinct person from God the Father? The Theophanies prove that He is.
Islam and Unitarianism, on the other hand, say that Jesus is one person and that person is a created purely human person. In view of our salvation, that is very problematic. Only God can save so the Utilitarian Jesus cannot save just as much as Muhanmad cannot save. Only God can rob Hades of its powers as Jesus did. This is very problematic and maybe @Wrangler can solve for us this dilemma that seems to exist in Unitarianism.
God bless.
Johann.
Maybe you can see the connection between Unitarianism-Islam and Judaism?
Just a thought brother.
Johann.
I would have to research what Judaism says about the Theophanies in the OT. Would you know?
See if this would be helpful brother-I have posted a ton of material on theophanies and video clips on the 2 powers and THE Angel of the Lord.
The Trinity in Ancient Jewish Books
Bookmark this clip brother-the reason why I don't share links is because most don't read or give it a listen-or bookmark rabbinical data.
Shalom Achi/brother
Johann.
Advice-listen to Jewish and Muslim debates and the sources they are using-I have done it for years and still doing it.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Do your best to shtel zich (apply yourself), to present yourself to Hashem as one approved, a po'el (workman) without bushah (shame), keeping on a derech yashar the Dvar HaEmes.
Hurry [yourself unadulterated to present] to God! a worker unashamed, cutting straight the word of truth
Don't be afraid to use secondary resources.
Wrangler
Well-known member
No problem at all. It’s called agency.
Throughout Scripture God reveals himself through others. The title Messiah in Hebrew, means Christ in Greek, which means in English ‘God’s Anointed.’ God has anointed many over the eras but his final Anointed One, Yeshua, has been given all authority in heaven and Earth.
Who gave Yeshua this authority? Cite the Scripture verse. This is very problematic and maybe you can solve for us this dilemma that seems to exist in trinitarianism. (Some are so bold as to invoke ‘the Father’ even when Scripture states it is God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature).
Wrangler
Well-known member
I reject your "therefore" comment as a complete invention not found in Scripture.
Wrangler
Well-known member
This is not generally different from any other container-contents relationship. Don't we "Anoint" a container to be combined with contents we design the container for?
The fact that God's Spirit had to join with the man Jesus proves he is not God. This sort of union is not unique to Jesus. God's Spirit came to many other prophets - even Saul.
Agency. If you are drowning and a captain of a ship sends the ship to rescue you and an Ensign pull you from the water, who rescued you; the Captain or the Ensign or both?
Allah did not give Muhammad all authority in heaven or Earth OR resurrect him from the dead to prove God's plan for us.
The Word of God also revealed Himself directly as evidenced by the Theophanies in the OT. That clearly shows that the Word of God is His own person. There is no denying that. So this Unitarian container/contained union is two-person monstrosity, a schizophrenic situation. Unitarianism has a problem. Maybe you can enlighten us as to how that problem was solved by Unitarianism?
We're talking about the Hypostatic Union here, not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Anointing). Keep your focus on the Hypostatic Union.
Besides, the Anointing concerns the humanity of Jesus, so the other OT anointings were prefigurations of the penultimate anointing that happened at Jesus' Baptism.
God the Father gave Christ full authority after Christ paid for our sins at the Cross and after He conquered Hades. These acts of Christ are simply not possible for a created human person, no matter how many times you repeat the word agency. Only God can save and Jesus did just that by virtue of the fact that He is the Divine Word of God Person. Also, the Bible does say that Jesus saves. Unitarianism has another massive problem here. Maybe you can enlighten us as to how this Unitarian problem was also solved by Unitarianism?
Then you reject the 2 verses that I sited In the OT that prove that the Word of God communicated as a Divine Person.
- 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
- 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"
Wrangler
Well-known member
I disagree.
The word of Person X is not Person Y. This is true in all circumstances and makes the trinitarian claim absurd on its face.
Wrangler
Well-known member
There is no "hypostatic union" in Scripture.
There you go again, making premises you know I reject and pretending like I agree with them.
It's probably best for us to leave this line of inquiry since you seem to lack the intellectual command of entertaining an alternative though to the one you hold.
The Word of Person X is a Person Y in the Bible verses I quoted. You offered no counterargument to those two verses other than your personal opinion that conflicts with the 2 verses cited. I'll stick with the Bible.
