Why The Trinity is Wrong: Language Usage

[Wrangler]

We were made also in the image of angels?

Strawman. I said nothing like this. If you can't admit the text is silent on who YHWH is talking to, so be it.

And angels had a share in making us?

So what if they did?

You need to demand better answers of yourself.

Why? What is wrong with these answers?

 

[Fred]

So what if they did?

That would contradict the fact that God performed the work of creating the universe (all created things) alone (Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24).

 

[Wrangler]

That would contradict the fact that God performed the work of creating the universe (all created things) alone (Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24).

The Strawman is that I said otherwise in this thread. But since you brought it up

Job 9:8 who alone stretched out the heavens
and trampled the waves of the sea;

Isaiah 44:24
English Standard Version
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

While the word alone is in these verses, that he created alone is not there, only that he 'stretched out the heavens' But you are not really addressing the link I provided, of how it was angels watched Creation of Earth if they were not created?

I understand why you have to resort to logical fallacy holding onto an indefensible doctrine. As I wrote, the text is ambiguous and you cannot accept that basic truth. So, Strawman we go. Try to get me to defend something I am not claiming while you also deny agency.

 

[Fred]

The Strawman is that I said otherwise in this thread. But since you brought it up

Job 9:8 who alone stretched out the heavens
and trampled the waves of the sea;

Isaiah 44:24
English Standard Version
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

While the word alone is in these verses, that he created alone is not there, only that he 'stretched out the heavens'

Which is preceded by the fact that He is the Maker of all things.

But you are not really addressing the link I provided, of how it was angels watched Creation of Earth if they were not created?

They can watch but they did not create.

I understand why you have to resort to logical fallacy holding onto an indefensible doctrine.

Which applies to you based on your confusion above.

As I wrote, the text is ambiguous and you cannot accept that basic truth.

Just because you say so doesn't cut it.

while you also deny agency.

Liar.
I affirmed agency doesn't apply in the area of prayer.

 

[Wrangler]

Which is preceded by the fact that He is the Maker of all things.

Yup. Notice how the word ‘Aline’ is not in the preceding clause? How do you explain the Angels witnessing the creation of Earth?

 

[Wrangler]

They can watch but they did not create.

Irrelevant to the point of the OP. They existed and YHWH could have been talking to them.

 

[Fred]

Yup. Notice how the word ‘Aline’ is not in the preceding clause?

Irrelevant, because heaven and earth means the universe.

How do you explain the Angels witnessing the creation of Earth?

They didn't do the work of creating.
A spectator at a game doesn't shoot the winning shot.

 

[Wrangler]

Just because you say so doesn't cut it.

LOL. If the there is a text that says ‘God talked to himself’ please cite it.

 

[Fred]

LOL.

Psalm 107:42
All iniquity shall stop her mouth.

If the there is a text that says ‘God talked to himself’ please cite it.

Genesis 8:21 (NASB)
The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Genesis 8:21 (KJV)
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

 

[synergy]

Strawman. I said nothing like this. If you can't admit the text is silent on who YHWH is talking to, so be it.
So what if they did?
Why? What is wrong with these answers?

Did you or did you not write these words:

I can speculate like anyone else. And because I am so demanding that others answer questions, I will speculate an answer. God is talking to other Elohim, other heavenly beings, such as angels.

as the reason for the US and OUR in Genesis 1:26 ?

If so, then you're including angels in the creation of man (let us make man) and angels are being included in whose image we are made in (in our image).

 

[Wrangler]

Did you or did you not write these words:

as the reason for the US and OUR in Genesis 1:26 ?

If so, then you're including angels in the creation of man (let us make man) and angels are being included in whose image we are made in (in our image).

1st. Not necessarily.

2nd. So what?

3rd. You don’t want to admit the text is silent on who YHWH is talking to and demanding I agree with your inference. I don’t.

4th. You are repeating your speculating, which does not make them correct.

 

[e v e]

This is how language works. “God” in his singular, unitarian nature is the subject of John 3:16, doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. And this leads us to Jesus’ title. Messiah, which means Christ, which means Anointed. Jesus is the object of the Anointing. God, in his singular, unitarian nature, does the Anointing; Jesus is Anointed by God.

Going back to the confusing subterfuge trinitarians like to leverage AS IF “the Father” is anyone other than the only true God of Scripture; The Bible repeatedly and explicitly states ‘God the Father.’ Not one time is “God, the Holy Spirit” or “God, the Son” stated in Scripture. The absence of such explicit teaching in Scripture proves it’s a non-trinitarian story. See Mark 7:13 & 2 Cor 1:13 (NLT).

Agency. Much of the Bible is told through agency, one being/person doing things through another. Examples include both angels and God were speaking at the burning bush and the destroyer of Sodom and Gomorrah. God apparently delegated forgiving sins to Jesus, who in turn, delegated it to the Apostles. Forgiving sin is divine but does not make one a deity. Isaiah said ‘I am the first and the last’ as did Jesus. This is what prophets do, speak on behalf of God. It does not make them God. God’s agents are NOT God.

We speak this way today. People say Hitler killed 4M Jews. He actually killed no one. So, we credit/blame the commander for the actions of those he commands. None of those who killed on Hitler’s command are Hitler. Agency.

God is not a unitarian.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is how language works. “God” in his singular, unitarian nature is the subject of John 3:16, doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. And this leads us to Jesus’ title. Messiah, which means Christ, which means Anointed. Jesus is the object of the Anointing. God, in his singular, unitarian nature, does the Anointing; Jesus is Anointed by God.

Going back to the confusing subterfuge trinitarians like to leverage AS IF “the Father” is anyone other than the only true God of Scripture; The Bible repeatedly and explicitly states ‘God the Father.’ Not one time is “God, the Holy Spirit” or “God, the Son” stated in Scripture. The absence of such explicit teaching in Scripture proves it’s a non-trinitarian story. See Mark 7:13 & 2 Cor 1:13 (NLT).

Agency. Much of the Bible is told through agency, one being/person doing things through another. Examples include both angels and God were speaking at the burning bush and the destroyer of Sodom and Gomorrah. God apparently delegated forgiving sins to Jesus, who in turn, delegated it to the Apostles. Forgiving sin is divine but does not make one a deity. Isaiah said ‘I am the first and the last’ as did Jesus. This is what prophets do, speak on behalf of God. It does not make them God. God’s agents are NOT God.

We speak this way today. People say Hitler killed 4M Jews. He actually killed no one. So, we credit/blame the commander for the actions of those he commands. None of those who killed on Hitler’s command are Hitler. Agency.

Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Titus 2:13: (KJV)
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in

2 Peter 1:1: (KJV)
"to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.

 

[Johann]

Jesus is one of the people God put his words in Jesus’ mouth. The one among the people that Moses told us about. John 1:45

Only YHWH is God per Scripture. We relate to him as our Father. This why there is only ‘God the Father’ in Scripture and not the other 2 in the trinity; no god the son or god the HS. Because there is only one God and his name is not Jesus.

Sorry-but you are entitled to your opinions.
The fact that Jesus is YHWH (God) is seen when we compare certain OT verses with NT verses.


The fact that Jesus Christ is Yahweh can be seen when we compare the following Old Testament verses with the corresponding New Testament verses.

Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh). When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.

In Joel 2:32a it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved. This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13. Both apostles are referring to Jesus as the LORD in these verses.

In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvellous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh). John tells us in John 12:40-41 that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.

In Isaiah 44:6, the LORD (Yahweh) refers to himself as “the First and the Last”. In Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus similarly refers to himself as “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last”.

In Zechariah 12:10 the LORD (Yahweh) speaks and says, “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.”[4] This is Jesus speaking (Psa. 22:16; John 19:34). This verse from Zechariah appears again in Revelation 1:7b and is about Jesus Christ.

As Yahweh (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit) Jesus is eternal, having all the qualities and attributes of God. Even on earth, in human form, Jesus was the image of the invisible God, and the exact representation of God’s nature (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). Jesus is not some sort of demigod; rather, the fullness of deity (“God-ness”) dwells in him in bodily form (Col. 2:9). Jesus Christ, born of the virgin Mary, was fully man and fully God, having both a human and divine nature at the same time.

As eternal God, Jesus Christ existed before he came to earth as a human baby. He existed before the creation of the earth. In fact, Jesus was instrumental in its creation. The Bible says that all things were created by Him, and that nothing was made without Him (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2). Jesus is not a created being himself.

The Scriptures teach us that there is only one God and we are commanded that we should worship no other gods (Exod. 20:3). From Scripture we can see that Jesus Christ is worshipped eternally, further proving his deity and place in the Godhead (Phil. 2:10-11; Rev. 5:9-14).

As wonderful as Yahweh’s Name is, there is a name which has even greater significance and importance:

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord[5] to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11.

Footnotes
[1] Jesus’ disciples, those closest to him, testified that Jesus is God. Peter writes “our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:1; Thomas addresses Jesus as “My Lord and my God!” in John 20:28; and John called the Word/Jesus, “God” in John 1:1. Also, the apostle Paul calls Jesus “the great God and Saviour” in Titus 2:13

[2] King David had no problem with declaring the Name of God. He uses it frequently in his Psalms. In Psalm 8:1 & 9 he says (or sings), “O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your Name in all the earth!”
Instead of saying God’s Name, many Jews replace YHWH with “Ha’Shem” when reading from Hebrew scripture aloud. Ha’Shem means “the Name” in Hebrew.

[3] “Jehovah” is another way of saying God’s Name and it appears in old English translations of the Old Testament, but this pronunciation has fallen out of favour because it is considered inaccurate by some.

[4] Some paraphrases, such as the Good News Bible and the Living Bible, do not translate this verse accurately.

[5] Several scholars believe we are to understand “Lord” in Philippians 2 as implying God’s name, and that one day every tongue will confess that “Jesus the Messiah is Yahweh.”

“O LORD (Yahweh), our Lord (Adonai), how majestic is your Name in all the earth!” Psalm 8:1 & 9.

The fact that Jesus is YHWH (God) is seen when we compare certain OT verses with NT verses.

You still sit with a problem-Scripture versus opinion.
Johann.

 

[synergy]

Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed. This is specifically associated with the translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Titus 2:13: (KJV)
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in

2 Peter 1:1: (KJV)
"to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.

How about John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6? John 17:3 looks like a Granville Sharp's Rule case. What can you say about 1 Cor 8:6?

(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(1 Cor 8:6) but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

 

[synergy]

Sorry-but you are entitled to your opinions.
The fact that Jesus is YHWH (God) is seen when we compare certain OT verses with NT verses.


The fact that Jesus Christ is Yahweh can be seen when we compare the following Old Testament verses with the corresponding New Testament verses.

Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh). When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.

In Joel 2:32a it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved. This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13. Both apostles are referring to Jesus as the LORD in these verses.

In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvellous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh). John tells us in John 12:40-41 that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.

In Isaiah 44:6, the LORD (Yahweh) refers to himself as “the First and the Last”. In Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus similarly refers to himself as “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last”.

In Zechariah 12:10 the LORD (Yahweh) speaks and says, “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.”[4] This is Jesus speaking (Psa. 22:16; John 19:34). This verse from Zechariah appears again in Revelation 1:7b and is about Jesus Christ.

As Yahweh (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit) Jesus is eternal, having all the qualities and attributes of God. Even on earth, in human form, Jesus was the image of the invisible God, and the exact representation of God’s nature (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). Jesus is not some sort of demigod; rather, the fullness of deity (“God-ness”) dwells in him in bodily form (Col. 2:9). Jesus Christ, born of the virgin Mary, was fully man and fully God, having both a human and divine nature at the same time.

As eternal God, Jesus Christ existed before he came to earth as a human baby. He existed before the creation of the earth. In fact, Jesus was instrumental in its creation. The Bible says that all things were created by Him, and that nothing was made without Him (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2). Jesus is not a created being himself.

The Scriptures teach us that there is only one God and we are commanded that we should worship no other gods (Exod. 20:3). From Scripture we can see that Jesus Christ is worshipped eternally, further proving his deity and place in the Godhead (Phil. 2:10-11; Rev. 5:9-14).

As wonderful as Yahweh’s Name is, there is a name which has even greater significance and importance:

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord[5] to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11.

Footnotes
[1] Jesus’ disciples, those closest to him, testified that Jesus is God. Peter writes “our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:1; Thomas addresses Jesus as “My Lord and my God!” in John 20:28; and John called the Word/Jesus, “God” in John 1:1. Also, the apostle Paul calls Jesus “the great God and Saviour” in Titus 2:13

[2] King David had no problem with declaring the Name of God. He uses it frequently in his Psalms. In Psalm 8:1 & 9 he says (or sings), “O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your Name in all the earth!”
Instead of saying God’s Name, many Jews replace YHWH with “Ha’Shem” when reading from Hebrew scripture aloud. Ha’Shem means “the Name” in Hebrew.

[3] “Jehovah” is another way of saying God’s Name and it appears in old English translations of the Old Testament, but this pronunciation has fallen out of favour because it is considered inaccurate by some.

[4] Some paraphrases, such as the Good News Bible and the Living Bible, do not translate this verse accurately.

[5] Several scholars believe we are to understand “Lord” in Philippians 2 as implying God’s name, and that one day every tongue will confess that “Jesus the Messiah is Yahweh.”

“O LORD (Yahweh), our Lord (Adonai), how majestic is your Name in all the earth!” Psalm 8:1 & 9.

The fact that Jesus is YHWH (God) is seen when we compare certain OT verses with NT verses.

You still sit with a problem-Scripture versus opinion.
Johann.

Well done, my friend. Thanks for bringing up quotes from Revelations wherein Christ has reassumed His Divine powers and perogatives, but always possessing divine nature even when He was on Earth.

 

[Johann]

How about John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6? John 17:3 looks like a Granville Sharp's Rule case. What can you say about 1 Cor 8:6?

(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(1 Cor 8:6) but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

As per 1 Cor 8.6

1Co 8:6 but to us there is one El, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Master YAHWEH, Yahshua Messiah, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

Yet in fact for us we have da'as that there is ADONOI ECHAD ("L-rd is One " DEVARIM 6:4), Hashem AV ECHAD L'CHULLANU ("One Father of us all” MALACHI 2:10), from whom are all things, and we exist for Hashem, and there is Adon Echad [MALACHI 3:1], Moshiach Yehoshua [ZECHARYAH 3:8; 6:11-12], through whom are all things and we through him.

God (theos), though he does apply that word to him in Rom_9:5; Tit_2:13; Col_2:9; Act_20:28.

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to flesh, He being YAHWEH over all, blessed forever. Amen.

&c, but here, and here only, modern interpreters are allowed to introduce, by varying punctuation, devices for destroying this emphatic testimony to the Deity of the Lord.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great Elohim and Savior Yahshua Messiah,

Col 2:9 For it is in Him that all the fullness of Deity continues to live embodied,

Act 20:28 Take care of yourselves and of the whole flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, so as to continue to be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.

Act 20:28 Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the congregation of YAHWEH which He purchased through His own blood.
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while

2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.

3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.
Shalom brother.

J.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How about John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6? John 17:3 looks like a Granville Sharp's Rule case. What can you say about 1 Cor 8:6?

(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Only God can give eternal life.

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Jn 17:2.

And Christ claims to be God in giving eternal life.
Is that what you wanted to 'hear?'

(1 Cor 8:6) but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

Not sure what you're getting at but to me this is clear that through Jesus Christ are all things.
Like the creation of heaven and earth.

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8:6.

Lord: Father.
Jesus: Son.
Christ: (Holy) Spirit.

Trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

Granville Sharp's Rule is a grammatical principle applied to the translation of New Testament Greek whereby the deity of Christ is explicitly affirmed.

Grammar does not change there is no trinity affirming verse in Scripture like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it.

 

[Wrangler]

Sorry-but you are entitled to your opinions.

Hey, whatever happened to staying out of each others way and putting me on ignore? Or was that just your command to me?