Why All Is Not Ordained

[Studyman]

Pentecost and Passover are two different events.

What good is Passover without Feast of Unleavened bread? And how can Pentecost even exist without Passover and Unleavened bread? You preach to others they are different events, but they are tied together eternally, just as the life and death of the Christ are not two different events. Salvation cannot exist without both of them, tying them together eternally.

You are Biblically wrong about your preaching "Now we're in Post-Cross times. The Cross has happened. We are now regenerated with the Holy Spirit to guide us. The OT Saints were not regenerated. Pentecost had not happened."

The Spirit of Christ in those Faithful in Acts is the same Spirit of the Same Christ that was in Abrham, at least according to Scriptures. This world's religions like to claim the Spirit of Christ didn't exist before Acts, and "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, fall for this popular deception. Let's see if you can answer some questions posed to you.

In Gen. 12, the Word of God which became Flesh, told Abraham;

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

This same Word of God, after HE became Flesh said;

Mark 8: 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

How is this instruction different for Abraham than for Peter? And which came first? The instruction to "Follow HIM", or Pentecost? Will you answer the question? Or just promote your religion?

You preach we are in "post-cross" times, whatever that means as it is not taught or even implied anywhere in the entire Bible. But in Mark 8, according to your religion, the cross had not yet happened even though Jesus said for them to "pick up their cross" and follow Him. But when I read what the Holy scriptures actually say, Jesus, that is the Jesus of the bible, was slain from the foundation of the world. Which makes perfect sense to me given God knows the end from the beginning, so in His Realm, Jesus WAS slain from the foundation of the world. So then Abraham would also be in "Post-Cross" times. Therefore, Abraham also had a Cross to carry while he followed the Same Christ, and his sins are forgiven by the same Christ that my sins are forgiven by. How is this not true?

The lamb provided for Abraham is a prefiguration of the Son of God Lamb provided afterwards by God at the Crucifixion.

Yes, Abraham knew before Jesus was even born that his sins would be covered by the Lamb that God Provided. Same as David, same as Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise men. All before Acts 2.

There is no mention of any regeneration occurring within OT times in any of the verses you forwarded.

Not your definition of regeneration, this is true. The word is used 2 times in the entire Bible.

Matt. 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Flesh and Blood will not judge the 12 tribes of Israel. As Paul teaches "This mortal MUST put on immortality". There is a "regeneration" promised to those who repent, turn to God and bring forth works worthy of repentance. Those who "put on the New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true godliness. Men who believe they have already been "regenerated" are rejecting the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Titus 3: 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Renewing of the Holy Spirit which God gives to those who obey Him. (Acts 5:32) God is a Spirit, His Words, they are Spirit and they are Life. When a man has God's Word in them, they have His Spirit in them. This world's religions transgress God's Commandments, (reject the Spirit) by their own religious traditions. ("works of righteousness" men have created")
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Word of God which became Flesh)

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You would have us think that Pentecost was just another day at the office with your way of thinking.

These is nothing in my post which would cause you to believe this way. You are just offended because I dared to challenge your adopted religious philosophy.

Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, these are "HOLY Days" created by the Word of God for His People. They are the "Feasts of the Lord". I Certainly don't dishonor God, as you promote, by treating them as just another day at the office.

 

[civic]

Did God save you from the wrath He targeted for your destruction?

Did God change His mind because of the sacrificial offering of Christ for you? Did Christ "thwart" the purpose of your destruction?

I’ll get the popcorn ready

 

[Studyman]

I must admit I probably misspoke when I suggested in a post prior that Abraham may not have been aware he was speaking a prophetically about Christ's coming, although I did say I believe he was speaking prophetically but what exactly does it mean that he saw the day of Christ. Does it actually mean he could partake of the new creation reality of being born again in his day?

I think we are surrounded by religious philosophies and traditions that are not from God, and this influences our understanding. For me, because of my study apart from any outside religious influence, my understanding has changed over the last 25 years or so.

As a result, I find no difference between;

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And;

Mark 8: 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Both, if obeyed, will create "the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness".

Jesus said;

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

God inspired this to be written about Abraham;

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It would be hard to promote that Abrham wasn't "Learned of the Father", and truly, according to Jesus, Abraham knew HIM, and HE knew Abraham. It would also be hard to promote the belief that Abraham wasn't a different man than when he lived in his fathers religion, traditions, lifestyles, etc. And others could have come with him, as did Lot and Lot's wife. But not all of them was God well pleased, as Lot's Wife turned to salt, just as Annanias and Saphira and Judas also fell in the symbolic wilderness.

For me it has become all connected, like a river of living water. As it turns out, Jesus actually said to live by "Every Word" of God. So I think it's good to have the discussions and talk it out. I appreciate being able to do that with you.

I tend to think he couldn't in his life on earth until after the resurrection. I think good men may differ on their thoughts on this matter. I'm more concerned with people claiming they're saved and born again before they actually hear the gospel .

I understand the philosophy. But it does say Abraham was Justified. And there is no other Name by which Justification can come. I understand the concern. My concern is what gospel is being taught? Those "Christians" in Matt. 7 promoted a gospel no doubt, it just wasn't the Gospel of Christ.

I've always believed that they knew a promised one would come. They knew that from Adam and Eve the word about the seed of the woman will crush the devil's head. That Abraham said God will provide a lamb speaks of at least an understanding of substitution . But did he actually know it would also entail that men would need a new heart as we see the Prophet Ezekiel tells the people it was something they would need? Did he partake of that benefit in his life time? That's another question.

Well one thing is for sure, the God of the Holy scriptures most surely exalted Abraham as an example of Faith that we are to emulate. And there are many more examples He gave us as well.

And to say they "knew", I'm not so sure about that. They "Believed" Yes, They "Hoped" Yes, They had Faith, which be definition is belief about something they can't see or prove, Yes. But is faith something you "Know" or something you believe?

And how is it any different for us other than we have the Writings. We still need to believe, hope for, have faith in something we can't "know" for sure. Isn't that what Faith is in the first place?

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I guess we will all know at some point******* or not

 

[Studyman]

"ALL THINGS"? Really?

How about the confession of John the Beloved Apostle?

Joh 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Abraham didn't know all such things. Abraham knew enough. More than most will allow but this is certain an extreme exaggeration on your part.

I posted someone else's words here understanding the context in which he used them. I should have been more exact in my wording, I guess. Yes, Abraham wouldn't have known every time Jesus tied His Sandles, or went to the bathroom, or ate a piece of bread, so you are right about the "All things". What Rockson and I were talking about, in my understanding anyway, is that Abraham would have known about the Sacrifice God would make to cleanses him of His Sins, the slave of sins his children would become in Egypt, etc.

Sorry about the implied extreme exaggeration.

Abraham lived the Gospel in his son Isaac. Isaac lived the Gospel in his sons Jacob and Esau. Jacob lived the Gospel in his sons Judah, Benjamin and Joseph.

Our lives should be all reflection of the Gospel.

I have long argued that a large amount of information was lost from the time of Abraham and the time of Moses. Some of this was recovered in the writings of Moses but not all.

Surely Abraham's Children had lost their way.

In my "Gospel" the new birth has been a part of the Gospel (message of God) from Abel/Cain down through all ages. Mankind has failed to continue that narrative throughout successive generations to point that only 8 souls were saved in Noah. Even those "eight" quickly abandoned God.

Over and over again man has abandoned God throughout our history. It is a bitter pill to swallow to realize this impact upon humanity but it is very real nonetheless.

LOL, I think it is an extreme exaggeration to teach that "ALL" men abandoned God. Abraham, Joseph, Job, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Elisha, Gideon, David etc. Men fall, they sin, but not "ALL" abandon God. As David, by the Spirit of Christ teaches in Psalms 14 " There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. So "many" men, Lots of men, truly abandoned God while calling Him Lord. But we also have the examples of Faithful men who did not.

I agree 100% that repentance and the "putting on" of the New Man "Which after God is created in righteousness and True Holiness" has been promote by the Inspired Word of God since the beginning. And the Holy scriptures, in my view, were written as examples to us, so that we wouldn't abandoned God, and the unfaithful did.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I posted someone else's words here understanding the context in which he used them. I should have been more exact in my wording, I guess. Yes, Abraham wouldn't have known every time Jesus tied His Sandles, or went to the bathroom, or ate a piece of bread, so you are right about the "All things". What Rockson and I were talking about, in my understanding anyway, is that Abraham would have known about the Sacrifice God would make to cleanses him of His Sins, the slave of sins his children would become in Egypt, etc.

Sorry about the implied extreme exaggeration.

No worries. I can be provocative.

LOL, I think it is an extreme exaggeration to teach that "ALL" men abandoned God. Abraham, Joseph, Job, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Elisha, Gideon, David etc. Men fall, they sin, but not "ALL" abandon God. As David, by the Spirit of Christ teaches in Psalms 14 " There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. So "many" men, Lots of men, truly abandoned God while calling Him Lord. But we also have the examples of Faithful men who did not.

I agree 100% that repentance and the "putting on" of the New Man "Which after God is created in righteousness and True Holiness" has been promote by the Inspired Word of God since the beginning. And the Holy scriptures, in my view, were written as examples to us, so that we wouldn't abandoned God, and the unfaithful did.

Faithfulness is a matter of degree. I know you know this. I was attempting to make the point that apostasy is very real. Mankind continually gets to point where the "righteous faithful" become fewer and fewer to the level where God judges this world in extreme measure. The flood. The destruction of Sodom. To the point the Incarnation brought about a choice in humanity that levels all men past and present to the same level.

"How much sorer punishments should he be thought worth of that has trodden under foot the Son of God".....

Lack of the knowledge of God destroys. We see this throughout our history. The generations before the flood are only witnessed by a few fractured references. I believe they knew much more than we often allow in our theology. Mankind has devolved in sinfulness.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,

 

[TomL]

Nope.

Do you object when millions are held accountable to a gospel they have never heard or will hear?

No as

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV 1900) — 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[Presby02]

No as

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV 1900) — 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

They will not seek a Lord they have never heard of. Faith comes by hearing. Yet they are condemned

 

[synergy]

What good is Passover without Feast of Unleavened bread? And how can Pentecost even exist without Passover and Unleavened bread? You preach to others they are different events, but they are tied together eternally, just as the life and death of the Christ are not two different events. Salvation cannot exist without both of them, tying them together eternally.

If Pentecost and Passover are not different events then every time you have a Passover the Holy Spirit would be poured out on you as during Pentecost. I don't understand how you cannot see that basic error you are promoting.

You are Biblically wrong about your preaching "Now we're in Post-Cross times. The Cross has happened. We are now regenerated with the Holy Spirit to guide us. The OT Saints were not regenerated. Pentecost had not happened."

The Spirit of Christ in those Faithful in Acts is the same Spirit of the Same Christ that was in Abrham, at least according to Scriptures. This world's religions like to claim the Spirit of Christ didn't exist before Acts, and "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, fall for this popular deception. Let's see if you can answer some questions posed to you.

In Gen. 12, the Word of God which became Flesh, told Abraham;

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

This same Word of God, after HE became Flesh said;

Mark 8: 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

How is this instruction different for Abraham than for Peter? And which came first? The instruction to "Follow HIM", or Pentecost? Will you answer the question? Or just promote your religion?

I am promoting the Bible. Are you promoting Calvinism or what exactly are you promoting?

You preach we are in "post-cross" times, whatever that means as it is not taught or even implied anywhere in the entire Bible. But in Mark 8, according to your religion, the cross had not yet happened even though Jesus said for them to "pick up their cross" and follow Him. But when I read what the Holy scriptures actually say, Jesus, that is the Jesus of the bible, was slain from the foundation of the world. Which makes perfect sense to me given God knows the end from the beginning, so in His Realm, Jesus WAS slain from the foundation of the world. So then Abraham would also be in "Post-Cross" times. Therefore, Abraham also had a Cross to carry while he followed the Same Christ, and his sins are forgiven by the same Christ that my sins are forgiven by. How is this not true?

Read Heb 9:16-17. Only after the Testator is dead (after the Cross) is his testament in effect.

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

You need to read the Bible in its entirety for you to understand the Truth.

Yes, Abraham knew before Jesus was even born that his sins would be covered by the Lamb that God Provided. Same as David, same as Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise men. All before Acts 2.

Not your definition of regeneration, this is true. The word is used 2 times in the entire Bible.

Matt. 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Flesh and Blood will not judge the 12 tribes of Israel. As Paul teaches "This mortal MUST put on immortality". There is a "regeneration" promised to those who repent, turn to God and bring forth works worthy of repentance. Those who "put on the New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true godliness. Men who believe they have already been "regenerated" are rejecting the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Titus 3: 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Renewing of the Holy Spirit which God gives to those who obey Him. (Acts 5:32) God is a Spirit, His Words, they are Spirit and they are Life. When a man has God's Word in them, they have His Spirit in them. This world's religions transgress God's Commandments, (reject the Spirit) by their own religious traditions. ("works of righteousness" men have created")
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Word of God which became Flesh)

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So you verified that there is no regeneration anywhere in the entire OT. That's my point.

These is nothing in my post which would cause you to believe this way. You are just offended because I dared to challenge your adopted religious philosophy.

Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, these are "HOLY Days" created by the Word of God for His People. They are the "Feasts of the Lord". I Certainly don't dishonor God, as you promote, by treating them as just another day at the office.

So Pentecost was an Earth-shaking event that only happened in the NT. That has been verified.

 

[TomL]

They will not seek a Lord they have never heard of. Faith comes by hearing. Yet they are condemned

Read the verse

Their habitation was set as to be advantageous to the obtaining of truth

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV 1900) — 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[TomL]

Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, these are "HOLY Days" created by the Word of God for His People. They are the "Feasts of the Lord". I Certainly don't dishonor God, as you promote, by treating them as just another day at the office.

Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Colossians 2:16–17 (ESV) — 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Romans 14:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[Presby02]

Read the verse

Their habitation was set as to be advantageous to the obtaining of truth

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV 1900) — 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Address my point. Or should I say Paul's point. Faith comes by hearing.

Really? Why does God place some knowing they will never hear the gospel??

 

[TomL]

Address my point. Or should I say Paul's point. Faith comes by hearing.

Really? Why does God place some knowing they will never hear the gospel??

No kidding that is why God set their habitation that they might hear

Their habitation was set as to be advantageous to the obtaining of truth

Acts 17:26–27 (KJV 1900) — 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

God in his knowledge knows each and every man and those who will respond to the gospel

 

[Studyman]

If Pentecost and Passover are not different events then every time you have a Passover the Holy Spirit would be poured out on you as during Pentecost. I don't understand how you cannot see that basic error you are promoting.

Pentecost and subsequent receiving of the Holy Spirit, was the result of obedience to God in observing Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread, (Repent, turn to God, do Works worthy of repentance) without which they wouldn't have even known when to be gathered. Peter tried to explain this to the mainstream preachers of his time as well. And they didn't listen either, they just became angry.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. 33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

I see that you easily ignore, and even refuse to acknowledge the Scriptures I post. Why would a man do this, if not to preserve and protect their own adopted religion? The Pharisees, the mainstream preachers of Peter's time did the same thing. Jesus told me why they did what you are doing. I am hoping you might consider what is actually written and repent, as those members of God's Church in Acts did.

I am promoting the Bible. Are you promoting Calvinism or what exactly are you promoting?

You are promoting your own religion. You are cherry picking Scriptures from the Bible to justify your adopted religion. This is clearly evident in that you refuse to even acknowledge the Scriptures I post which brings question to your own religious philosophy.

Can you point out even ONE instance in all the Posts I have made on this forum, in which I am promoting Calvinism? And what am I promoting? That a man should believe ALL that is written in Scriptures, and not just the verses he can twist to justify his own religion?

If you were promoting the bible, you would know that Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread leads to Pentecost. Without them, there is no Pentecost. That is the undeniable Biblical Truth. You are free to make the case that it isn't. But my guess is that you will just change the subject.

Read Heb 9:16-17. Only after the Testator is dead (after the Cross) is his testament in effect.

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

You need to read the Bible in its entirety for you to understand the Truth.

Since you have exalted yourself as a teacher, and transformed yourself into an apostle of Christ, I should be able to ask you a question, and you will answer, Yes?

Who was the Testator of the first testament?

I look forward to your answer.

So you verified that there is no regeneration anywhere in the entire OT. That's my point.

Are you judging the 12 tribes of Israel? If not, then how can you have taken part in the "Regeneration"? Are you still mortal? If so, how can you be "regenerated"? What is verified, is that "YOUR" definition of regeneration doesn't exist anywhere in the bible.

So Pentecost was an Earth-shaking event that only happened in the NT. That has been verified.

And yet, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men were all given the Holy Spirit, all knew the Christ and His Purpose, all observed Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread and Pentecost before Jesus was even born.

Just because you and your religion don't believe what is written, doesn't make what is written untrue.

 

[Studyman]

Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

This is great Tom. Now that you have posted these Scriptures, as basically a club to prove my understanding wrong, will you then be willing to discuss and ask and answer questions about them? Or is this just another "Hit and Run" or drive by clubbing?

I'm hoping you will enter into an honest discussion, and I will proceed under that assumption.

Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye "knew not" God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

So how are you interpreting this? Are you preaching that before these men even knew God, they were walking in His Feasts and obeying HIS Statutes and living by HIS Judgments? And that was doing "service unto them which by nature are no gods"?

Please answer this question for me Tom. I can't get anyone to answer how a man that doesn't know God, is walking in His Statutes?


9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

So again, please answer these questions for me. So now that a man has, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance", they are now rejecting God's Feasts, Statutes and Judgments they walked in when they didn't know God? But are now "turning again" to obedience to God which you seem to be implying are "weak and beggarly elements" that Jesus was held in Bondage by?

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

So what are you preaching here then? That God's Sabbaths and Pagan god high days are exactly the same? Paul says to "Keep the Feast" of Unleavened bread. Is He then promoting pagan high days? Weak and Beggarly elements? Are you preaching that Jesus is "Lord, even of weak and beggarly elements God created that were "made for man"?

I have heard "many" who come in Christ's Name since my youth, use this verse to justify their rejection of God's statutes and Judgments. I have asked hundreds of preachers and those who have "transformed themselves into Apostles of Christ", and in all my years of asking, not ONE person has answered my questions. I hope you will be the first.

I have other questions regarding the other verses you posted. I look forward to your answers.

 

[Studyman]

Colossians 2:16–17 (ESV) — 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Continued:

So then, I have heard this verse used since my youth also, as justification to reject God's Statutes, commandments and judgments.

I never understood how they can use this to justify rejecting God's Good Works that HE created beforehand that we should walk in them. I can understand pagan high days, as they are shadows of nothing to come. But Paul has already warned the Colossians;

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Feasts of the Lord, is the Feasts of the Christ, Yes? They are not "traditions of men". In your religion, isn't this the "LORD" that became Flesh in the person of Jesus and dwelled among men? Didn't this same Jesus walk in these Statutes until His death? It seems like Paul is telling the Faithful here, "don't let this world's religions judge you in food or drink or Statute of God, because they are shadows of things to come, the substance of these things belongs to the Christ.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

What did Jesus say about "Food and Drink"?

Matt. 6: 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

It seems like the Christ, that is, the Christ "of the Bible" knew there would be "many" who called Him Lord, but would preach to the world that God's Feasts are "Beggarly Elements and Traditions of man. Seeing these men coming, HE had written specifically for my Admonition,

Lev. 23: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

It is therefore no surprise to me that Paul would advise the Faithful "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

As there is much that has yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Studyman]

Romans 14:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

This is another verse men use as a club to justify religious traditions of men. The must separate this scripture from Paul's other words in which he instructs the Body of Christ to "Rebuke them sharply" or "their mouths must be stopped".

They also must ignore the Christ's Words regarding who God gives to Him, and of whom they are learned. But even without all the other verses in the bible that go with this, I would still have one question.

Why would I get wrapped up in what day one man esteems over what another man esteems? Who is God? Who am I to "Yield myself" a servant to obey? Isn't it true that what is important is the Righteousness of God, not man? Shall a "man of God" not submit to God regarding what is Holy and what is not?

Shall I not become convinced in my own mind regarding who to listen to and who not to listen to? And if a man is learned of the Father, he will know what day God Esteems above another, and will honor God in them just as Jesus and all the examples of faithful men in the entire Bible did.

So for the "weak in Faith", which wouldn't include "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, or "many" deceivers who come in Christ's Name, I can know God will bring them around. But for those who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", it's a different program altogether.

 

[TomL]

This is another verse men use as a club to justify religious traditions of men. The must separate this scripture from Paul's other words in which he instructs the Body of Christ to "Rebuke them sharply" or "their mouths must be stopped".

They also must ignore the Christ's Words regarding who God gives to Him, and of whom they are learned. But even without all the other verses in the bible that go with this, I would still have one question.

Why would I get wrapped up in what day one man esteems over what another man esteems? Who is God? Who am I to "Yield myself" a servant to obey? Isn't it true that what is important is the Righteousness of God, not man? Shall a "man of God" not submit to God regarding what is Holy and what is not?

Shall I not become convinced in my own mind regarding who to listen to and who not to listen to? And if a man is learned of the Father, he will know what day God Esteems above another, and will honor God in them just as Jesus and all the examples of faithful men in the entire Bible did.

So for the "weak in Faith", which wouldn't include "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, or "many" deceivers who come in Christ's Name, I can know God will bring them around. But for those who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", it's a different program altogether.

Um Paul was not teaching the traditions of men but the word of God

Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Colossians 2:16–17 (ESV) — 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Romans 14:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[TomL]

Continued:

So then, I have heard this verse used since my youth also, as justification to reject God's Statutes, commandments and judgments.

I never understood how they can use this to justify rejecting God's Good Works that HE created beforehand that we should walk in them. I can understand pagan high days, as they are shadows of nothing to come. But Paul has already warned the Colossians;

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Feasts of the Lord, is the Feasts of the Christ, Yes? They are not "traditions of men". In your religion, isn't this the "LORD" that became Flesh in the person of Jesus and dwelled among men? Didn't this same Jesus walk in these Statutes until His death? It seems like Paul is telling the Faithful here, "don't let this world's religions judge you in food or drink or Statute of God, because they are shadows of things to come, the substance of these things belongs to the Christ.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

What did Jesus say about "Food and Drink"?

Matt. 6: 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

It seems like the Christ, that is, the Christ "of the Bible" knew there would be "many" who called Him Lord, but would preach to the world that God's Feasts are "Beggarly Elements and Traditions of man. Seeing these men coming, HE had written specifically for my Admonition,

Lev. 23: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

It is therefore no surprise to me that Paul would advise the Faithful "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

As there is much that has yet to be fulfilled.

Paul speaks rather plainly

Colossians 2:16–17 (ESV) — 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Romans 14:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[Studyman]

Paul speaks rather plainly

Colossians 2:16–17 (ESV) — 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Romans 14:4–5 (ESV) — 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

It's ok that you can't discuss what these scriptures actually mean, that you promote yourself as a teacher but refuse to answer any questions asked of you, or that you use scriptures to justify your religion, but obviously have no idea what they mean.

I was just hoping you might be different and actually engage in an honest discussion regarding what the Scriptures actually say.

It was the same for Jesus and Paul with the mainstream preachers of their time as well.

 

[TomL]

This is great Tom. Now that you have posted these Scriptures, as basically a club to prove my understanding wrong, will you then be willing to discuss and ask and answer questions about them? Or is this just another "Hit and Run" or drive by clubbing?

I'm hoping you will enter into an honest discussion, and I will proceed under that assumption.

Galatians 4:8–11 (KJV 1900) — 8 Howbeit then, when ye "knew not" God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

So how are you interpreting this? Are you preaching that before these men even knew God, they were walking in His Feasts and obeying HIS Statutes and living by HIS Judgments? And that was doing "service unto them which by nature are no gods"?

I believe Adam Clark correctly points out

When ye knew not God] Though it is evident, from the complexion of the whole of this epistle, that the great body of the Christians in the Churches of Galatia were converts from among the Jews or proselytes to Judaism; yet from this verse it appears that there were some who had been converted from heathenism; unless we suppose that the apostle here particularly addresses those who had been proselytes to Judaism and thence converted to Christianity; which appears to be most likely from the following verses.

Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 403–404.

examine

Galatians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

they had become servants.

And were introduced into or converted to Judaism

Please answer this question for me Tom. I can't get anyone to answer how a man that doesn't know God, is walking in His Statutes?

You have been answered. They had not known God, became proselytes observing Days, months, and years

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

So again, please answer these questions for me. So now that a man has, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance", they are now rejecting God's Feasts, Statutes and Judgments they walked in when they didn't know God? But are now "turning again" to obedience to God which you seem to be implying are "weak and beggarly elements" that Jesus was held in Bondage by?

Nope you missed the progression from heathen, to proselyte, to christian

but Paul is clearly pointing out that under the new covenant the observance of days, months and years are weak and beggarly items which lead to bondage

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

So what are you preaching here then? That God's Sabbaths and Pagan god high days are exactly the same? Paul says to "Keep the Feast" of Unleavened bread. Is He then promoting pagan high days? Weak and Beggarly elements? Are you preaching that Jesus is "Lord, even of weak and beggarly elements God created that were "made for man"?

Never mentioned pagan high days. You are assuming that

Why is Paul fearful they observe days, month and years

In Galatians. 4:10, 11, Paul sets aside the keeping the Jewish Sabbath and all those holy days of the law. "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you." That this refers to the holy days of the old law is proved by his reference to that law, both before and after this text. Thus: "The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians. 3:24, 25. That law has ended at the cross as Paul said in Colossians. 2:14-17. Again: "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?" Galatians. 4:21. "Ye are not under the law." Galatians. 5:18. So, then, he means the holy days of the law and these included the Sabbath as the chief of all. Look at his list: Days, (Sabbath days, weekly), months (new moons), times (yearly feasts), and years (Sabbatical years). This is exactly the list of Jewish holy times. Canwright



To the Romans Paul taught the same doctrine: the observance of the Jewish holy days was not to be regarded. "One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans. 14:5.