Why All Is Not Ordained
- Thread starter Rockson
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Would you object to anything God does?
I would object to what Calvinism claims God does. Most certainly
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's not what I asked. Would you object to anything God does? I know you do.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You free-willers insist that the hinge and turning point of your salvation is due to the will of man. How dare God decide on whom to have mercy apart from their free will choice? Shocking.
Verse 13 speaks of Regeneration ("born...of God"). Nobody is claiming to be able to will that into effect. That's a strawman on your part. It is verse 12 where one's willingness to receive and believe Him comes into play. And that's when subsequently we become children of God and we become born of God. Kindly retract your strawman (before I set it ablaze).
civic
Well-known member
Exactly it’s just another strawman
No you do not know.
I object to what Calvinism teaches not what God does.
There is a wide chasm between the two.
Strawmen are all they have
Becoming a child of God is by way of regeneration
(5) The “children of God.”—Those who are “begotten of God” are ipso facto “children of God” (tékna theoú, Jn 1:12; 11:52; 1 Jn 3:1, 2, 10; 5:2).1
1 R. Law, “Johannine, Theology, The,” ed. James Orr et al., The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company, 1915), 1703.
CHILDREN OF GOD. Persons in this category are only those who of the fallen race are regenerated as a result of faith in Christ1
1 Merrill F. Unger, “Children of God,” ed. R.K. Harrison, The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988).
Children of God (tekna theou). In the full spiritual sense, not as mere offspring of God true of all men (Acts 17:28). Paul's phrase huioi theou (Galatians 3:26) for believers, used also by Jesus of the pure in heart (Matthew 5:9), does not occur in John's Gospel (but in Rev. 21:7). It is possible that John prefers ta tekna tou theou for the spiritual children of God whether Jew or Gentile (John 11:52) because of the community of nature (teknon from root tek-, to beget). But one cannot follow Westcott in insisting on "adoption" as Paul's reason for the use of huioi since Jesus uses huioi theou in Matthew 5:9. Clearly the idea of regeneration is involved here as in John 3:3.
Word Pictures in the New Testament.
Vincent agrees
Sons (τέκνα)
Rev., more correctly, children. Son is υἱός. Τέκνον, child (τίκτω, to bring forth), denotes a relation based on community of nature
Word Studies in the New Testament.
τέκνα θ. γενέσθαι] The spiritual life owes its beginning to a birth from above, ch. 3:3–7. And this birth is owing to the Holy Spirit of God; so that this is equivalent to saying, ‘As many as received Him, to them gave He His Holy Spirit.’ And we find that it was so: see Acts 10:44.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 684.
Nope.
Do you object when millions are held accountable to a gospel they have never heard or will hear?
Ummmm, your claim that no purpose of God can be thwarted but some are is a contradiction if there ever was one.
We also have Isaiah 14:27 which says the same thing. Among many others.
So yes, I am ready. When are you starting? I hope this was not it.
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but there are some times you're required to do some study and realize context of what verses means must be considered. So when the devil came to Jesus and told him he could jump off the temple and the angels will protect him and he responses NO there's another verse of scripture which will balance out
your quote from Psalm 91 by saying IT IS ALSO WRITTEN "Thou shall not tempt the Lord God" Oh I see, we should tell Jesus he's contradicting the Bible? And by the way folks. I'd encourage no one to jump off into Calvinsim. Whatever scriptural support they think they have you need to know IT IS ALSO WRITTEN which make what they say NON-substantial. Just beware.
So
Great, so in what context would someone proclaim "NO PURPOSE of God can be thwarted, but some can"?
Says the same thing in Isiah 14:27. Different context, same statement.
Psalms 33:10,11. Same thing.
Proverbs 19:21 Another
Well to be honest, I never take just ONE sentence of the Bible and create doctrine around it, although "many" who come in Christ's Name do. That would be shallow reasoning in my view. So if I may, let me post just a few more Scriptures, not all as there are so many, to answer your question. And thanks for answering.
Rev. 13: 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
John 8: 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: "and he saw it", and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Luke 1: 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake "by the mouth of his holy prophets", which have been since the world began:
Luke 2: 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face "of all people"; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Gen. 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
So for me, given what is written that I posted, and there are many more Scriptures to note, how is it even possible for Abraham and Noah not to know the Christ, or the very reason for His Being in the first place? And clearly the Scripture I posted, "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering" is just more evidence of what Paul and I both understand.
Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed "from faith to faith": (From the Faith of Noah and Abraham to the Faith of Caleb and Rahab) as it is written, The just shall live by faith. ( A Scripture found within the Gospel of Christ) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which "may be known of God" is manifest in them; "for God hath shewed it unto them".
So Rockson, I understand this world's religions "who come in Christ's Name" don't teach these things, which is why in my understanding, Jesus said to "Take Heed" we are not deceived by them. But given what is actually written, it's a stretch in my view, to believe Abraham DIDN'T "know, understood and comprehended all things which Jesus would come someday to do". Certainly Zacharias knew, David knew, Simeon knew, the Wise men knew, and Anna knew before Jesus was even born.
1 Pet. 1: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ "which was in them" did signify, when it testified "beforehand" the sufferings of Christ, "and the glory that should follow".
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Please let me know if this sufficiently answers the question you asked of me.
Thanks Rockson
Rockson
Well-known member
I must admit I probably misspoke when I suggested in a post prior that Abraham may not have been aware he was speaking a prophetically about Christ's coming, although I did say I believe he was speaking prophetically but what exactly does it mean that he saw the day of Christ. Does it actually mean he could partake of the new creation reality of being born again in his day? I tend to think he couldn't in his life on earth until after the resurrection. I think good men may differ on their thoughts on this matter. I'm more concerned with people claiming they're saved and born again before they actually hear the gospel .
I've always believed that they knew a promised one would come. They knew that from Adam and Eve the word about the seed of the woman will crush the devil's head. That Abraham said God will provide a lamb speaks of at least an understanding of substitution . But did he actually know it would also entail that men would need a new heart as we see the Prophet Ezekiel tells the people it was something they would need? Did he partake of that benefit in his life time? That's another question.
From where did you get the quote "NO PURPOSE of God can be thwarted, but some can"?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
"ALL THINGS"? Really?
How about the confession of John the Beloved Apostle?
Joh 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Abraham didn't know all such things. Abraham knew enough. More than most will allow but this is certain an extreme exaggeration on your part.
Abraham lived the Gospel in his son Isaac. Isaac lived the Gospel in his sons Jacob and Esau. Jacob lived the Gospel in his sons Judah, Benjamin and Joseph.
Our lives should be all reflection of the Gospel.
I have long argued that a large amount of information was lost from the time of Abraham and the time of Moses. Some of this was recovered in the writings of Moses but not all.
In my "Gospel" the new birth has been a part of the Gospel (message of God) from Abel/Cain down through all ages. Mankind has failed to continue that narrative throughout successive generations to point that only 8 souls were saved in Noah. Even those "eight" quickly abandoned God.
Over and over again man has abandoned God throughout our history. It is a bitter pill to swallow to realize this impact upon humanity but it is very real nonetheless.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
He didn't.
Job 42:2, Isiah 14:27. So I will ask you the same question. Can God's purposes be thwarted by the will of man?
civic
Well-known member
imagination since its not in the bible
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Did God save you from the wrath He targeted for your destruction?
Did God change His mind because of the sacrificial offering of Christ for you? Did Christ "thwart" the purpose of your destruction?
