The Accomplice Factor
- Thread starter Rockson
- Start date
fellas That's an interesting perspective about teachers. If you think about it, it was a "teacher" who "Professed to know God" that convinced Eve God had lied to her in the very beginning. I never really thought that when Paul said;
2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
That Paul was only speaking about teachers. And certainly, that would include anyone who defends and promotes their religious philosophy to others on these public forums.
I'll have to ponder this for a while. Thanks for sharing.
I don't believe the Scriptures promote a God who loves all sinners. If this was true, we wouldn't be required by God to repent for Salvation. I get that God showed His Love for His Creation while they were yet in sin, just as the Passover Lamb was slain while Israel was yet in Egypt. But as Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 10, "Many fell in the wilderness". Why did they fall? Because God hates the Sinner.
Psalms 11: 5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. 7 For the righteous LORD "loveth righteousness"; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Matt. 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them "which do iniquity" (Sinner) 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye "workers of iniquity". (Sinners) 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Sinners)
I really enjoy your perspective, and I don't want to discourage discussions with you. But given what is actually written in the holy scriptures, I would never teach others that God loves the Sinner.
Ez. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: "for why will ye die", O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
civic
Well-known member
Below we see no diffference or distinction of sinners who were children of wrath like the rest of mankind who are not saved.
Ephesians 2
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
He is not talking about coming out of the “world’s religious system”, but coming out of the lifestyle promoted by the world.
Doug
Yes, every Calvinist, every Catholic, every Armenian, every Jehovah Witness, every Morman, every SDA, every Baptist, every religious sect and business, "who calls Jesus Lord, Lord" on the planet, have been convinced, and "Thinketh they stand" or are convinced they are already "saved".
Those Christians in Matt. 7:22 also believed they were saved. But in Truth they were " following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience"
Even though they called Jesus Lord, Lord, they were "by nature children of wrath".
Jesus warned specifically of religious men "Who come in His Name" and told us to "Take Heed" we are not deceived by them.
In this world God placed me in, there are religious sects and businesses who compete for members. Just as there were in Jesus Time as a man on earth. Pharisees against the Sadducees. Armenians against Calvinists. SDA against Catholicism, Baptists against SDA.
One believing he is superior or right, while accusing the other of promoting false doctrines.
But when a man "Comes out of them", and trusts the Holy Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", it becomes clear that there isn't any real difference between any of this world's religions sects as they all promote the transgression of God's Judgments and Laws by their own manmade religious traditions.
In my studies, I find this understanding an incredible blessing. For one, all these competing religious sects and businesses cannot agree on scriptures, because God has confounded them as it is written of the tower of Babel in Gen. 11: 1-9. Specifically verses 6 and 7.
It's quite difficult to see this if a person has adopted one of these religious sects above the others.
But becomes clear when a man trusts the Jesus of the Bible enough to be a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings and not a hearer only.
I believe we are all called out of this world's religions just as Abraham and Peter, and Zacharias etc.
But such a view doesn't make for a good marketing strategy for the religions competing for members.
Such discussions are good to have in my view, although uncomfortable for many, as it was in the beginning for me.
I understand the sentiment. But when the scriptures are considered, Jesus was more worried about this world's religious system who "Professed to know God", who "Called Him Lord, Lord", "who come in Christ's Name", or who "Transform themselves" as apostles of Christ, or as HE points out in Matt. 6.
Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
This is clearly speaking to this world's religious system. A hard pill to swallow for some, nevertheless, it seems clear if a person trusts the Scriptures.
civic
Well-known member
This would be an intersecting topic to have more discussion. I personally came out of Calvinism a couple years ago after believing it for over 40 years. In that sense I track what you are saying above. The reality is no single group or individual today has a complete grasp on all the truth. We all believe in some error whether or not we want to admit it.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Context…Jerusalem, in Jesus’s time, was politically Roman, but culturally Jewish and therefore religious. The images and time period of Revelation 18 are very different circumstances.
It is a global phenomenon that is under the domination of the Antichrist; and the only thing worshipped in that culture is demonic in nature. The world will be completely in his back pocket and those who call Jesus as Lord cannot go with the flow of that culture. Thus, Jesus’s call to “come out from among them”!
Doug
This would be an intersecting topic to have more discussion. I personally came out of Calvinism a couple years ago after believing it for over 40 years. In that sense I track what you are saying above. The reality is no single group or individual today has a complete grasp on all the truth. We all believe in some error whether or not we want to admit it.
It is the manmade religious tradition of "Adopting" one religious group over another that I have found problematic. You seem bound to have joined a religious group, and then are bound to promote its particular religious philosophy which varies from group to group. For a time, you promoted Calvinism, no doubt with the same Zeal you now teach against it. When studying the reformation, I found that men left Catholicism, based on Scriptures, but they kept the Catholic Sabbaths, her high days, her judgments, her religious business model, her tradition of building manmade shrines of worship, the preacher sitting at the chief seats of the house and so on. Not to be critical, but simply honest about a perspective I have now that I have stopped adopting popular religious philosophy just because a religious group promotes it.
The Catholics did the same when they abandoned the "Jews religion" that Paul partook of before his conversion to the Church of God. They left the "Jews Religion" but kept many of their religious traditions. Their business model, the creation of their own sabbaths and judgments. They adopted the Pharisees traditions which transgressed God's commandments.
In like manner, men leave the religious group of Calvinism but continue in their same religious traditions which cause them to transgress God's Commandments, reject God's Judgments, Pollute God's Sabbaths, and so on.
The entire religious system of this world is chaos, confusion, rebellion and disobedience to God. Pharisees against Sadducees, Baptist against Catholic, Calvinist against Armenian. SDA against LDS and so on and on and on. All having one thing in common with the Sect of the Pharisees, walking in their religious traditions are more important to them than walking in God's Commandments and judgments that HE before ordained that men should walk in them, like Jesus did.
While I agree that none of these religious groups promote truth, I don't agree that God doesn't reveal His Truth to men who seek HIS righteousness, His Truth. The only thing that stood in the way of the Pharisees accepting God's Truth, was unbelief in God and His Word. There is no faith without belief, in my understanding
I advocate that men turn from popular religious tradition and become "doers" of the Christ's Sayings. Striving to enter this path leads to righteousness, in my understanding. Will a man lose friends, will family disown him, will he be humiliated, broken and shunned by this world's popular religious groups? No doubt a man who places their Faith in this God will not be popular with the religious sects and franchises of this world. And that's OK with me because I am waiting for the rewards Jesus brings with HIM when HE comes back to give to every man according to what he has done, whether it was good and bad.
Religious Groups don't matter, as Paul teaches.
2 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
This leads to righteousness according to Paul (Romans 6:16) And according to John.
1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
And as David, Inspired by the Spirit of Christ teaches;
Ps. 14: 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: "for God is in the generation of the righteous". 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
The Body of Christ.
civic
Well-known member
All valid points I'm not disagreeing with you.
Also I'm no longer locked into any particular systematic theology. In a sense I examine myself often to see whether I'm in the faith as Paul instructs us to do and as I seek God without a doctrinal bias He reveals the errors of my thinking. One must read the bible with a new lens and not with what we have been taught or told the bible says or means.
I appreciate you sharing what you have been taught. My point is to lay these popular doctrines aside and submit ourselves unto the Holy scriptures, and the God who inspired them "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
This was "done" by the True Body of Christ Paul represented so "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". (2 Tim:3:16,17)
Again, when asked about the future, the Jesus "of the Bible" said this.
Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Jesus doesn't warn about Islam, Buddhism or even Atheists here. He specifically warns of ONE religion which exists in this world God placed both you and I in.
And that is a religion who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "come in His Name. "Christianity". What other religion could deceive someone seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness?
Even Eve was deceived by a voice "Who professed to know God".
I know this is a tough pill for many to swallow, just as it was for the only God of Abraham preaching religion on the planet, when Jesus told the Chief Priest and Scribes "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do".
In my view, men should seek God's Truth, not justification of their own adopted religion.
All valid points I'm not disagreeing with you.
Also I'm no longer locked into any particular systematic theology. In a sense I examine myself often to see whether I'm in the faith as Paul instructs us to do and as I seek God without a doctrinal bias He reveals the errors of my thinking. One must read the bible with a new lens and not with what we have been taught or told the bible says or means.
It is truly good to follow Paul's advice and "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God and to become "servants of God's righteousness" as opposed to living by the judgments and doctrines of one religious sect of this world or another.
These discussions are good for men to have.
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but I find it somewhat ambiguous on what you mean by this statement. Are you saying true sound doctrines cannot truly be ascertained so don't put a focus on it. If so I'd have to disagree with that. Maybe you could bring some clarity?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Context is the “Holy Scripture”…
And in my view, you are being very presumptuous that we are “seek[ing] justification of [our] own adopted religion. Perhaps there is a “log verses speck” thing going on here.
Doug
No! Just the opposite.
A man can ascertain sound doctrine of God, if he "Seeks the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness", as Jesus instructs. But if he has adopted the doctrines, judgments and traditions of this world's religious sects, then his "focus" will be on justifying his own religion, rather than for or ascertaining sound doctrine.
The Pharisees had the Scriptures, but lived by their own religious judgments and doctrines of men. Those self-proclaimed "Christians" in Matt. 7:22 had the Scriptures but also lived by their own religious doctrines and judgments of men. Those men who partook of the Passover but fell in the wilderness had the Word of God, but also chose to live by their own doctrines and Judgments as opposed to "Yielding themselves" servants to obey God, like Caleb and Zacharias and Simeon.
This is why the Pharisees argued with the Sadducees, and SDA argue with the JW's. And the Calvinist argue with the Armenians, and the Baptists against the Catholic, on and on and on, in my understanding.
We are servants to whom we "Yield ourselves" to obey. At least this is what Paul teaches.
Yes, the Law and Prophets and the Testimony.
Well, there is Catholicism, Calvinism, Arminianism, Adventism, Baptists, JW's, LDS, AOG, Lutheran, and many more, and they all argue between themselves over doctrine. Are they all not arguing to justify the doctrines and traditions of their specific adopted religion? Each one competing against the other as the true purveyor of truth?
Regardless of the implied log in my eye, these things are true. If I die tomorrow, they would still be true. Before I was born, these were true as well. You can deflect and defend yourself by making it about me if you choose, I understand if you don't want to talk about these things.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
With all due respect, my brother, and to the point of my comments, you have left someone off the list- yourself! Are you not “arguing to justify” your own “doctrines and traditions” regardless of your alignment with any particular ideology, “against [all others] as the true purveyor of truth”?
In other words, you are no different from any of us on this forum!
I have no problem discussing anything with you or anyone else, I only want you to recognize that your argument is precisely what you are arguing against! The very fact that we are on this forum means that we are pitting our own views against everyone else’s!
Doug
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
This thread is in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism portion of this forum. These are two of the many religious sects that make up this world's religious system. They both compete for contributing members without which their religion could not exist. They both share in the tax benefit this world provides them, and there is a massive financial industry associated with their religious traditions, manmade shrines of worship, charities, health care, education and other businesses these religions have engaged in. They have their own seminaries and teachers, just as the Pharisees had Gamaliel. Truly the merchants of this world have become wealthy through this religious industry. Their manmade high days generate billions of dollars a year in revenue for the merchants of the earth. While the Feasts of the Lord that Jesus and His Church walked in during Biblical times, are rejected and forgotten.
These are absolute facts of this world God placed us in.
My point is simply that the Pharisees, Sadducees, Calvinist's, Armenians, Catholicism, Baptists SDA and "many" other religious sects and businesses which exist in the world God places us in, make up a huge part of this world's religious system. God inspired Moses to write about this religious system in the story about the tower of Babel. Jesus spoke of men who partake of this religious system in Matt. 6: 1-8, and again in Matt. 7:22,23. Paul warned of the men who promote this system in 2 Cor. 11: 12-15 and Col. 2:8. Jesus warned of these same men in Matt. 24: 3-5. God inspires Jeremiah to warn of them in Jer. 23.
Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
You don't seem to deny any of these truths, you just want to make sure that I am just as guilty as you of promoting and defending this world's religious system.
You are free to promote whatever you like, true or false. And God knows my shortcomings. But I do not promote or defend this world's religious system. You do, but I do not. You have no evidence that I do, and yet you accuse me.
You promoted the following unsolicited reply to a conversation I was having.
Jesus didn't warn about a secular lifestyle when HE was asked about the future. He didn't warn me of being deceived by Atheists, or Greek Mythology. He specifically warned of "Christianity". Here is what the Jesus "of the Bible" told me.
Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.
What other religion comes in Christ's Name, other than Christianity? Where are these "many" who deceive in Christ's Name that Jesus warns of? Calvinist's say it's the Armenians, SDA says it's the Catholic, Armenians say it's the Calvinists. Just like the Pharisees, who also professed to know God, accused the Sadducees. And on and on and on and on. My friend, this IS BABYLON.
When a man accepts this undeniable truth, (Which Jesus said would set men free) Babylon falls in his mind.
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with "his glory".
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of "her fornication", and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of "her" delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, "my people", that ye be not partakers of "her" sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
My friend, listen to what is written, "Every Word of God" as the Jesus of the Bible instructs. In the new heavens and the new earth, wherein dwells righteousness, do you really believe this world's religious system will still be in place?
Rockson
Well-known member
So where do you stand on the issue. I hardly think you can be neutral in this without a thought. I don't care about isms and I don't believe God was in an ISM, something it seems you look down upon when God said it's not his will that any should perish. Surely you don't think that' an ISM?
Look TRUTH would still be truth if anyone got offended and left.
Please stop insinuating those who put forth that God loves the sinner and that he so loved the world that he that believeth should have life are doing it for money.
Everybody is promoting something and so ARE YOU. Are you promoting a neutral position that no one can know about whether God loves the sinner . What exactly are you standing for. If it's nothing then sorry that's what you're promoting.
You're in the world and you're promoting something.
But you are. You're either saying God did ordain every evil thing on the earth to take place or you're saying he didn't. Or you're saying you don't know and if you're content with that position sorry but you're saying Ignorance is Bliss.
That's what we're trying to do and we don't put on the shelf as unimportant that God DOES INDEED love the sinner.
I do believe the truth that God loves all will always be in place. Yes I do. It we didn't his character would be gone. Surely you don't think that will pass away?
