The Accomplice Factor

[Studyman]

Not necessarily evil.

I was just responding to your teaching.

"John 3:20 uses the word ἔργον, works, lifestyle deeds, and it does not mean doctrines!"

Of course, promoting a doctrine wrought in the Word of God, and not religious man, would be a righteous work/deed, not an evil one. While promoting doctrines and traditions of men which cause those who adopt them to transgress God's commandments, would be an evil deed, not a righteous one. At least this is my understanding of the Jesus "of the Bible's" Words to the mainstream preachers of His Time.

There is so much wrong with this statement. Your “view” is unsubstantiated and self-serving; your view determines who is right and who is wrong.

Actually, in my view, God determines what is "right" and what is "wrong". You can say this "view" is wrong, but Jesus Said to "Take Heed" of the other voices in the garden God placed me in, who "Profess to know God". He Himself said to do what HE determines is right, so I can live. Is this self-serving? In a sense it is, in that I seek Glory, immortality and honor and I am convinced there is only One God who to turn towards in this endeavor. How is this belief "unsubstantiated"?

Rom. 2: 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You are assuming the capacity to look into our hearts and determine whether he “refuses to bring the doctrines and/or the religious tradition he lives by to the Light, to protect and/or hide them from God's judgment”.

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches me that men only need to see the "Fruits/works" of another to see what it is his heart. This would be true looking in a mirror as well, in my view.

Matt. 7: 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore "by their fruits" ye shall know them.

Matt. 12: 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Shall we not believe what this Jesus says?

You would be saying the same thing if I were making your argument about you!

I welcome honest discussion about Scriptures. I actually long for them.

Ibid above. It is sufficient to disagree and explain your reasoning why any particular view is exegetically wrong. We do not have the right to judge motives or determine their guilt.

Jesus already judged their motive for me, it's right there in your own Bible. I simply shared HIS Judgment with you. I am not better than the man Jesus speaks about in John 3. If I ignore Scriptures or omit God's Word in order to preserve and protect my own adopted religion, I am not "doing truth". But if I bring the doctrines and traditions of this world's religions to the Light, or the Word of God, shall I not therefore be able to discern if they are or are not Wrought in God?


1 John 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits "whether they are of God": because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man "deceive you". 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you "through philosophy" and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matt. 6: 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be "as the hypocrites" are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 8 Be not ye therefore "like unto them": for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

I don't have the right to create my own judgments regarding my fruits or the fruits of others. But as anyone can see, I must have the right to rely on God's Judgments regarding these things.

I advocate that men seek the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, not live by this world's religious tradition of picking one religious sect of this world over another.

 

[TibiasDad]

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches me that men only need to see the "Fruits/works" of another to see what it is his heart. This would be true looking in a mirror as well, in my view.

The Jesus of the Bible teaches me that I am to love the Lord with all my heart, soul and strength, and my neighbor as myself.

That alone is my life’s purpose and goal. If I correct, it is to only seek their good. I have very little, if any thing negative to say about the scripture you have presented or the meaning that you have attached to them; I am only concerned that you may be unnecessarily throwing your brothers and sisters under the bus.

I count you as a brother, though I may not agree with your perspective. I’m not going to argue the point any further. I’m certain that in the end, we will all find ourselves wrong at some point in which we were sure we were correct. I may disagree but I may not be disagreeable.


Doug

 

[Studyman]

The Jesus of the Bible teaches me that I am to love the Lord with all my heart, soul and strength, and my neighbor as myself.

Again, why do you seem to always change the subject when I reply to your teaching? You said "You are assuming the capacity to look into our hearts and determine whether he “refuses to bring the doctrines and/or the religious tradition he lives by to the Light, to protect and/or hide them from God's judgment”. I posted Jesus' own Words in which HE Himself tells me about men. He not only tells me that a man's works, (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) show what is in his heart, but that I have a duty to discern a man's works (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) to determine if this man's works, (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) are wrought in God or not, and this for the express purpose of "Take Heed no man deceive you".

This begins with self-examination, Yes?

1 John 2: 3 And "hereby we do know" that "we" know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, "in him" verily is "the love of God perfected": "hereby know we" that we are in him.

But it is necessary to discern the "works" of men who "teach", in order to determine if the works they are promoting, (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) are wrought in God. This is why Jesus and His Father warns in the Holy Scriptures to "take heed" and Beware. And beware of what?

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (the first principles) of the world, and not after Christ.

This is why I replied to your teaching that in Matt. 24, Jesus was warning about a future when "many" who would come in Christ's Name but are preaching to others that "THEY" are the Christ, not the Jesus "of the Bible".

I have heard of this foolishness from this world's religions for some time now. It is a deception created by the deceiver to cause men to take their eyes off the true threat, which are men who come in Christ's Name, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, preaching that Jesus is truly the Christ, but are really just "workers of iniquity", who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ.

But you didn't even acknowledge the Holy Scriptures I posted and chose instead to deflect away for your teaching on this matter, and you changed the subject, just as you are doing in this post.

I understand why, because Jesus told me why in John 3.

That alone is my life’s purpose and goal. If I correct, it is to only seek their good.

Fascinating how this works isn't. When you "correct" it is for someone's own good. But when someone corrects you, they are throwing brothers under the bus, or falsely "assuming the capacity to know what is in their heart".

I have very little, if any thing negative to say about the scripture you have presented or the meaning that you have attached to them;

This is no doubt true. In most of our exchange you don't have anything to say about most of the Scriptures posted.

I am only concerned that you may be unnecessarily throwing your brothers and sisters under the bus.

But if I would accept your religious philosophy and promote it to others in spite of what the Scriptures actually teach, then I am loving brothers and sisters and seeking their own good. JW's teach the same thing. Calvinists and Armenians teach the same exact thing. Catholic and Baptist's teach the same thing. LDS teaches the same thing.

What if men are already under the bus, they just don't know it? And the Light which would show this to them is ignored because men love their "works" (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) and want to preserve and protect them?

I think it's a mistake for men to believe Jesus was only talking about the "other guy" in John 3.

I count you as a brother, though I may not agree with your perspective.

It's not about perspective, it's about God's Truth. Jesus explained to me who His Brothers are, and who HE doesn't know. They both call Him Lord, Lord, they both "come in His Name", and they both preach Jesus is the Christ. This is an undeniable truth.

I'm not advocating that you follow or adopt "my" perspective. But that we could, as brothers, examine scriptures and discern popular religious philosophies and doctrines through them, and accept what is found even if, actually especially if it exposes a darkness (false doctrine, manmade traditions or philosophies) within us.

I’m not going to argue the point any further. I’m certain that in the end, we will all find ourselves wrong at some point in which we were sure we were correct.

Wow, so then your religious advice to others is it doesn't matter if a man adopts the religious doctrines, traditions or philosophies of the Calvinists, Armenians, Catholics, Lutherans, JW's, SDA, LDS, Baptists or any of this world's "many" differing religious sects and businesses, because in the end we are all deceived anyway?

Where is your Scriptural support for this teaching?

I may disagree but I may not be disagreeable.

According to the Jesus "of the Bibles" own Words, HE doesn't even know a lot of people who call Him Lord, Lord. I wouldn't advise men to take the word of some random preacher who comes in Christ's Name, and "transformed himself" into an apostle of Christ, as to whose house will stand, and whose house will fall "in that day".

That's why I post on this forum, to promote the "Light" defined by the Holy Scriptures as opposed to the doctrines, traditions and philosophies of this world's religions, "who come in His Name".

I get that you don't want to talk about it.

 

[TibiasDad]

Again, why do you seem to always change the subject when I reply to your teaching?

I didn’t change the subject, I simply replied in kind to your statement:

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches me that men only need to see the "Fruits/works" of another to see what it is his heart. This would be true looking in a mirror as well, in my view.

To which I said:

“The Jesus of the Bible teaches me that I am to love the Lord with all my heart, soul and strength, and my neighbor as myself.”

This is the first and greatest command.

He not only tells me that a man's works, (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) show what is in his heart, but that I have a duty to discern a man's works (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) to determine if this man's works, (doctrines, traditions, philosophies) are wrought in God or not, and this for the express purpose of "Take Heed no man deceive you".

And my “doctrines, traditions, philosophies” are to love the Lord with all my heart, soul, and strength and my neighbor as myself. Against this, “there is no law”!

Doctrine matters, Studyman; I cannot agree more. But not all areas of doctrine are equal. Soteriology is not a concrete doctrine beyond the foundational principle that Christ died for the forgiveness of sins and that the salvation thus provided is by grace through faith! On this all orthodoxy is founded, and on such Calvinism and Arminianism are one! (As are Traditionalists and Lutherans and other orthodox systems of faith.) We have room for disagreement on the details without “throwing the baby out with the bath water”!

Wow, so then your religious advice to others is it doesn't matter if a man adopts the religious doctrines, traditions or philosophies of the Calvinists, Armenians, Catholics, Lutherans, JW's, SDA, LDS, Baptists or any of this world's "many" differing religious sects and businesses, because in the end we are all deceived anyway?

I didn’t say that at all as my previous comment has stated.

According to the Jesus "of the Bibles" own Words, HE doesn't even know a lot of people who call Him Lord, Lord. I wouldn't advise men to take the word of some random preacher who comes in Christ's Name, and "transformed himself" into an apostle of Christ, as to whose house will stand, and whose house will fall "in that day".

I certainly agree; good thing I haven’t done that! I submit myself to my Lord’s judgement, and therefore my judgement of anyone else’s beliefs. We all answer to him alone.

That's why I post on this forum, to promote the "Light" defined by the Holy Scriptures as opposed to the doctrines, traditions and philosophies of this world's religions, "who come in His Name".

I get that you don't want to talk about it.

That’s why we all post on this forum. The issue is, Studyman, that the “light, defined by the Holy Scriptures” is always defined by our own capacity to understand and interpret scripture. Since none of us are infallible, all of us should be humble enough to understand that we might not have something right.

Again, disagreements are inevitable. Being disagreeable, however, is not necessary.

And by the way, I did not say that I’m not willing to talk about this; I said that I’ve nothing more to say about it! That is that I have made my opinion known, and that is all I can do, regardless of your agreement or disagreement. You have, I believe, done likewise.


Doug