We choose. We chose. You choose. You chose. You will choose.

[Ray]

So here are the reasons I believe in Free Will.

1. If determinism were true, the Bible could be written drastically differently to make clear that potential alternate decisions or choices are not real and viable. For what reason would it be written in a non-deterministic way at any point whatsoever? Although we could come up with some abstract reasons, it makes the most sense that we are suppose to feel like there are some choices we can make.

2. Although this seems obvious, many people seem to feel that if there are limitations to the free will, then it is somehow not “free” anymore. We can still believe in the sin nature and the inability to be perfect, yet believe a kind of choice that can be made even in the midst of that, a choice that accepts God’s grace. So there is absolutely no incompatibility with the doctrine of a sinful nature, since we receive outside empowerment.

3. Many feel that a choice is necessarily a meriting work, that is, if I make a decision that results in allowing God’s grace to work in me, this choice is necessarily at least partially earning the result of whatever the grace works: but that actually is an imposed and not a necessary conclusion. If I were to give someone a gift based on something they did, I would not necessarily insist that what they did earned my gift.

4. It seems many determinists will admit that God does not want us to sin, and sometimes try to disconnect the logical implications of God decreeing sin so that somehow God is not really the determining cause. It makes more sense that acting like choices are actual gives more incentive and motivation to make better choices, and even under determinism one would have to assume that belief in free will has been determined.

5. I have considered determinism seriously but never felt convinced of it, even though I feel completely open to the possibility. I have to believe due to my own prolonged sincere search, that the idea that I have no ability to make an actual (free) choice is a deception that makes more sense as explained by what the devil would want me to believe, since the devil wants me to make bad choices.

It is mainly for these above reasons that I see and feel no conviction to adopt any kind of deterministic belief, and see it more as a trick of the enemy to make me put less importance in my decisions. The one counter argument that I could feel has some credence is, “Well, if you start to believe things are up to you, you won’t really be able to rest in grace.” Which argument seems a bit odd logically because I couldn’t have a choice about what I believed if determinism were true, I would either be set to believe or not believe it by God’s decree, and arguments would not be the actual causal factor in changing my mind. But I can understand the persuasiveness of that line of reasoning. I would say that, the knowledge that God will always help me make good choices could equally make me unafraid of not being able to rest in his grace, and since that promised help is a sufficient reason to rest in grace, anything more feels like presumption to me, the presumption of assuming that I will always make a choice that lines up with God’s decree is just too great a risk to take.

Works for me. That last part in bold is probably the best thing I've read on this forum so far.

 

[civic]

Determinism is "the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will." In other words, the socks you put on today (if you put on socks) is determined by causes external to your will. I don't know anyone who believes that.

Calvin , Sproul and many others espouse it

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Calvin , Sproul and many others espouse it

Prove it.

 

[Ray]

What do you mean by this phrase?

I think I spelled it wrong but regardless of that I've never heard it before and I don't have the slightest idea what it means. But I got Google.

 

[Diserner]

So many logical fallacies I don't know where to start.

How about start with ANY. That's not so hard is it. I don't see one yet.

It's not a choice between free will and determinism. As I have said multiple times, we all have free will.

Because some people play naughty, naughty with ambiguous conflation of terminology and what they mean by phrases, I will insist you not use the terms "free will" and "determinism" all alone in ambiguous ways with no clarification. You end up using the term "free will" for something that is not free, and that's not very honest or clear. We don't want to win arguments by merely hijacking terminology and language, that's dishonest.

I could call Libertarian Free Will "determinism" because the agent "determines" their choice. Then I can say "Well, all Arminians believe in determinism! We believe in determinism more than Calvinists! Everyone determines their choice!" Now determinism is actually being used in two different senses and equivocation is happening creating a talking past each other by both sides meaning different things with the same term.

That is called "hijacking" the language and terminology to support and fit my position better.

This is why when we speak of the actual IDEAS and MEANINGS behind the term, it is best to stick with LFW and EDD so people can't play equivocation games.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So many logical fallacies I don't know where to start.

It's not a choice between free will and determinism. As I have said multiple times, we all have free will.

The issue isn't between free will and determinism. The issue is whether or not you are able, of your own free will, decide to choose salvation.

Reformed theology does not refute free will, only libertarian free will. Unsaved, our will is bound to enmity against God, so we freely choose according to that inclination. When we are born from above, we have the Spirit that opens our eyes and ears, such that our inclination is no longer a slave to sin. We may sin, we may even sin a lot. But we have a new life, changed by the grace of God.

1. Inclination isn't absolute. No one denies the inclinations of sinners to sin.
2. The Gospel enlightened you. You didn't get saved apart from the Gospel. You must prove you were enlightenment apart from exposure to the Gospel to establish what you claim to be true. You can't do this.
3. Do you recognize that you're creating a privileged class of human being? At least admit that you are. Obviously you're saying you have free will to choose contrary to those just like you.

 

[Ray]

Okay here's the correct spelling... divine indeterminacy ...And I guess the meaning is... It is pointless to try and explain.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Determinism is "the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will." In other words, the socks you put on today (if you put on socks) is determined by causes external to your will. I don't know anyone who believes that.

Only in certain "circles". There are actually many differencing versions of determinism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Okay here's the correct spelling... divine indeterminacy ...And I guess the meaning is... It is pointless to try and explain.

God disrupts the plans of the wicked.... Thank God He does.

 

[civic]

Prove it.

The Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :

"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us

Calvin below:

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66

“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121

“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8

“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169

“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,

“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174

“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176

“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179

God is the AUTHOR in Calvinism !

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Only in certain "circles". There are actually many differencing versions of determinism.

That's the Oxford English Dictionary definition.

 

[Ray]

God disrupts the plans of the wicked.... Thank God He does.

I guess that's what the flood was all about huh? The wicked seem to be running amok in this day and age , but it could be worse. Yes thank God for keeping the lid on it.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :

"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us

Calvin below:

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66

“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121

“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8

“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169

“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,

“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174

“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176

“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179

God is the AUTHOR in Calvinism !

None of that has anything to do with God determining which socks you choose to wear today.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's the Oxford English Dictionary definition.

I know. Determinism is extraordinarily complicated and you can't sum it up in just a few words like the Oxford dictionary tries. It is philosophical concept. If you reference reputable philosophical sources, you will spend significant time understand the intricacies. I've spent more time than I care to admit studying some of it. I'm sure others have as well.

 

[civic]

None of that has anything to do with God determining which socks you choose to wear today.

Everything that comes to pass is determined by God even every last movement of every single molecule.

 

[praise_yeshua]

None of that has anything to do with God determining which socks you choose to wear today.

You have a more complicated position than some of these scholars. Calvin was rather clear. He used the word "nothing" to exclude any possibly within God's Providence.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Everything that comes to pass is determined by God even every last movement of every single molecule.

It is ordained, not determined. There's a difference. You can choose something of your own will only if God ordains it to be so, but God didn't make you do it. Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery of their own (fallen) free will. But God meant it to happen. It says so right in the text.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Everything that comes to pass is determined by God even every last movement of every single molecule.

This is a good point to ask the question......

What is the difference between exhaustive theological determination and the belief that all things have already transpired.....

Strictly from a Divine perspective, I don't see much of a difference. Maybe a topic for another thread.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is ordained, not determined. There's a difference. You can choose something of your own will only if God ordains it to be so, but God didn't make you do it. Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery of their own (fallen) free will. But God meant it to happen. It says so right in the text.

Brother, there are many Calvinist that will say the exact opposite. They will clearly tell you that God created evil for His purpose.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Brother, there are many Calvinist that will say the exact opposite. They will clearly tell you that God created evil for His purpose.

Quote one. I don't mean a quote where God ordained evil to occur, but actually created evil.