The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[civic]

We do not see one misconception of scripture happening here. Eventually the extension of misconceptions appear in the unitarian error. If the unitarians wanted to prove their point, just make a book dealing with the pertinent verses they see used in the Trinitarian doctrine and explain all those together -- and probably passages like Jesus walking on water -- which some just claim is what regular humans always could do.
The unitarian approach is like guerilla warfare -- of doing random attacks against scripture but never dealing with the whole of scripture. It is hard to imagine that the unitarian arguments are anything beyond scattered superficial challenges.

The biblical reality is no man in scripture ever made the claim Jesus made, said the things He said or did the things He did. And no one in scripture said salvation is found in them, by following them, obeying them- they all pointed to God whereas Jesus pointed to Himself as the Savior of all mankind, the Good Shepherd of the sheep that one must follow and obey, the One in whom eternal life is found, the only one worthy of giving His life as a ransom for all whereas we know in psalm 49:7 no man can give their life as a payment to God for them. Scripture is filled with such examples that only God can do which clearly identifies Christ as God- the one a person must confess and believe to be saved. The One Lord, Only Lord.

 

[Runningman]

wrong again we are discussing monogenes.

Gennaó in Hebrew 1:5 lends to this discussion because it's relevant and on the same topic. So plainly you don't believe sons are begotten or born?

 

[Runningman]

Since you are rejecting synonyms, you are stacking the deck. If you wanted a search for a specific Greek word, then you should have said that only the use of that Greek word was pertinent to your question. If you wanted an honest discussion, you would invite the discussion that has ensued regarding the prayers to Jesus in recognition at least in recognition of his deity in a veiled sense, like the Centurion who realized the authority of Jesus of asking for the healing of his daughter.
But you probably twist that into something like a non-heavenly word of faith heresy since you say Jesus was just a human and not sent from anywhere.

I've been trying to help you stay on track. Praying is always praying, but crying out, calling out, requesting, talking, speaking, etc are not always prayers. That's the difference. In a legal sense, you can't actually prove Peter prayed to Jesus. or anyone else did for that matter. Since this topic seems to be going no where (again) then what is your beef with Jesus being a man who God anointed, empowered, and worked through in the same way God worked through others?

 

[mikesw]

The biblical reality is no man in scripture ever made the claim Jesus made, said the things He said or did the things He did. And no one in scripture said salvation is found in them, by following them, obeying them- they all pointed to God whereas Jesus pointed to Himself as the Savior of all mankind, the Good Shepherd of the sheep that one must follow and obey, the One in whom eternal life is found, the only one worthy of giving His life as a ransom for all whereas we know in psalm 49:7 no man can give their life as a payment to God for them. Scripture is filled with such examples that only God can do which clearly identifies Christ as God- the one a person must confess and believe to be saved. The One Lord, Only Lord.

Interesting how Psalm 49:7 shares that a man cannot be a ransom for himself. Lots of passages contribute to a more distinct teaching of the Trinity and the need for God to send his Son.

 

[mikesw]

I've been trying to help you stay on track. Praying is always praying, but crying out, calling out, requesting, talking, speaking, etc are not always prayers. That's the difference. In a legal sense, you can't actually prove Peter prayed to Jesus. or anyone else did for that matter. Since this topic seems to be going no where (again) then what is your beef with Jesus being a man who God anointed, empowered, and worked through in the same way God worked through others?

I did not realize that Peter called out in an illegal sense. Sorry I missed that.
In the serious sense, no regular human has walked on water apart from Jesus. No man has forgiven sins except he be God incarnate. You have to disregard many passages to make your argument.

You have to say that Paul was wrong and that all the early Christians were wrong about the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. All this has to happen to say unitarians got a restored concept of Jesus.
Like I mentioned, these guerilla tactics are a failure to come against the Trinitarian doctrine. Since you are still confused about Jesus having to be sent from his place in heaven for our redemption, check the recent posts by civic.

 

[Runningman]

I did not realize that Peter called out in an illegal sense. Sorry I missed that.

Funny.

In the serious sense, no regular human has walked on water apart from Jesus.

Peter walked on water:

Matthew 14
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

No man has forgiven sins except he be God incarnate. You have to disregard many passages to make your argument.

God gave men (plural) power to forgive sins:

Matthew 9
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

You have to say that Paul was wrong and that all the early Christians were wrong about the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. All this has to happen to say unitarians got a restored concept of Jesus.
Like I mentioned, these guerilla tactics are a failure to come against the Trinitarian doctrine. Since you are still confused about Jesus having to be sent from his place in heaven for our redemption, check the recent posts by civic.

Paul was right, but Trinitarians are wrong.

Please show where Jesus was sent from his place in heaven.

 

[mikesw]

Funny.

Peter walked on water:

Matthew 14
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

God gave men (plural) power to forgive sins:

Matthew 9
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.



Paul was right, but Trinitarians are wrong.

Please show where Jesus was sent from his place in heaven.

Old tired arguments on your part. Peter walked by the power of Jesus. Mat 9:8 speaks of the perception of people who had no idea of Jesus as Messiah.
Also, where else would Jesus be sent from? How else could he descend from heaven? Not sure on what your confusion is based.

 

[DavidTree]

I got that, but let's see what else John said about the Word, taking in all of the writings and rightly dividing them.

Did John call the Word a thing when he referred to the Word as a that, which, and it?

1 John 1 KJV
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The Apostle John wrote: "HE was in the beginning with God."

John is referring to a PERSON in John chapter 1 and 1 John

IMPORTANT = John wrote "which" = 3 Times in verse 1

IMPORTANT = the Apostle John identifies "that which" as the GOSPEL and as the PERSON, who is God's SON = Jesus Christ

 

[civic]

Interesting how Psalm 49:7 shares that a man cannot be a ransom for himself. Lots of passages contribute to a more distinct teaching of the Trinity and the need for God to send his Son.

Or anyone else

 

[mikesw]

Or anyone else

thanks for including that point. I respond with lightning speed ... okay ... I just saw the general theme and posted what I remembered.

 

[Runningman]

Old tired arguments on your part. Peter walked by the power of Jesus. Mat 9:8 speaks of the perception of people who had no idea of Jesus as Messiah.
Also, where else would Jesus be sent from? How else could he descend from heaven? Not sure on what your confusion is based.

How could Peter walk on water by the power of Jesus when Jesus didn't walk on water by the power of Jesus? The story about them walking on water is about their having faith in God. Peter last faith and sank, Jesus kept faith and stayed above the water. How do we know this? Because the Bible teaches that Jesus is a man through whom God did miracles through. Just admit it, you got it all wrong because regular people were doing the same things Jesus was doing, including forgiving sins, which Matthew 9:6-8 is clear about the only mentioned power to forgive sins being what God gave to the men.

Acts 2
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

 

[Runningman]

The Apostle John wrote: "HE was in the beginning with God."

John is referring to a PERSON in John chapter 1 and 1 John

IMPORTANT = John wrote "which" = 3 Times in verse 1

IMPORTANT = the Apostle John identifies "that which" as the GOSPEL and as the PERSON, who is God's SON = Jesus Christ

Since John called the Word a thing in 1 John 1:1-3, I am inclined to believe the Word is being personified and not really a person. My original answer stands.

a.) The man named JESUS became the only begotten Son of God

 

[mikesw]

How could Peter walk on water by the power of Jesus when Jesus didn't walk on water by the power of Jesus? The story about them walking on water is about their having faith in God. Peter last faith and sank, Jesus kept faith and stayed above the water. How do we know this? Because the Bible teaches that Jesus is a man through whom God did miracles through. Just admit it, you got it all wrong because regular people were doing the same things Jesus was doing, including forgiving sins, which Matthew 9:6-8 is clear about the only mentioned power to forgive sins being what God gave to the men.

Acts 2
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

So you want to assert and back your idea that Jesus did not do this of his own power?

 

[DavidTree]

Since John called the Word a thing in 1 John 1:1-3, I am inclined to believe the Word is being personified and not really a person. My original answer stands.

a.) The man named JESUS became the only begotten Son of God

Gospel of John chapter 1

John IDENTIFIES the WORD as:
a.) Pre-existing as the Word
b.) Pre-existing as HE
c.) Pre-existing with God
d.) Pre-existing as God and creating all things AND thru Whom gives light to every man coming into the world
e.) HE, the pre-existing Word that was God and giving eternal life to all who believed on HIM
f.) HE, the pre-existing Word that was God, becoming flesh as the only begotten Son of the FATHER - full of Grace and TRUTH
g.) HE, the pre-existing Word that was God, becoming flesh as the only begotten of the FATHER and as the LAMB that takes away the sins of the world.

Each statement is found in the Gospel of John chapter 1

 

[Runningman]

So you want to assert and back your idea that Jesus did not do this of his own power?

Yes and no theology or arguments required. This is just straight Scripture that Jesus got his power from the Father. It's all over the New Testament.

Acts 2
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

John 5
19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 14
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 8
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 17
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Matt 12
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

[mikesw]

Yes and no theology or arguments required. This is just straight Scripture that Jesus got his power from the Father. It's all over the New Testament.

Acts 2
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

John 5
19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 14
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 8
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 17
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Matt 12
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Good. you finally include the third person of the Trinity in Matt 12:28. It is good you also show the Son and Father working harmoniously in the Godhead. You include Jesus working harmoniously in Joh 5:19,30 showing nothing about Jesus not having power but only speaking of Jesus acting harmoniously. John 14:10 corresponds to Jesus being in the Father and the Father in him. So again we have harmonious interaction. I was trying to see if you had something contrary to what I said. Instead you show verses mostly confirming what I said.

 

[Runningman]

Gospel of John chapter 1

John IDENTIFIES the WORD as:
a.) Pre-existing as the Word
b.) Pre-existing as HE
c.) Pre-existing with God
d.) Pre-existing as God and creating all things AND thru Whom gives light to every man coming into the world
e.) HE, the pre-existing Word that was God and giving eternal life to all who believed on HIM
f.) HE, the pre-existing Word that was God, becoming flesh as the only begotten Son of the FATHER - full of Grace and TRUTH
g.) HE, the pre-existing Word that was God, becoming flesh as the only begotten of the FATHER and as the LAMB that takes away the sins of the world.

Each statement is found in the Gospel of John chapter 1

The Gospel of 1 John chapter 1

John IDENTIFIES the WORD as:
a.) Pre-existing as a thing
b.) Pre-existing as an it
c.) Pre-existing as eternal life with the Father
d.) Not pre-existing as God
e.) IT, the pre-existing Word that was not called God, but rather eternal life that was with the Father
f.) IT, the pre-existing Word that was as a thing, being eternal life that was revealed by Jesus
g.) IT, the pre-existing Word that was not God, not becoming flesh but rather a thing that was revealed by Jesus.

Each statement is found in the Gospel of 1 John chapter 1

 

[Runningman]

Good. you finally include the third person of the Trinity in Matt 12:28. It is good you also show the Son and Father working harmoniously in the Godhead. You include Jesus working harmoniously in Joh 5:19,30 showing nothing about Jesus not having power but only speaking of Jesus acting harmoniously. John 14:10 corresponds to Jesus being in the Father and the Father in him. So again we have harmonious interaction. I was trying to see if you had something contrary to what I said. Instead you show verses mostly confirming what I said.

Strange conclusion since other beings who have a spirit are not a compound being of persons, but rather one person. What you wrote demonstrates to me that you don't understand that a spirit is not a separate person.

God also has a soul. So is a soul a 4th person?

Leviticus 26
11And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

 

[mikesw]

Strange conclusion since other beings who have a spirit are not a compound being of persons, but rather one person. What you wrote demonstrates to me that you don't understand that a spirit is not a separate person.

God also has a soul. So is a soul a 4th person?

Leviticus 26
11And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

at least you are closer by recognizing the Triune sense. You might not have realized that God is not made in the image of man. You seem to miss that point. We already know that the Spirit is one of Triune Godhead. If this is not what you expected, no one understood it until the New Testament. You just are slow to catch up.

 

[Runningman]

at least you are closer by recognizing the Triune sense. You might not have realized that God is not made in the image of man. You seem to miss that point. We already know that the Spirit is one of Triune Godhead. If this is not what you expected, no one understood it until the New Testament. You just are slow to catch up.

Jesus has a distinct spirit from God and so do we, yes we can also have the Spirit of God without being God. You're close to putting the puzzle pieces together.

Matthew 12
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.