The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[Pancho Frijoles]

Pancho, who should we love more - God or Jesus?

The person who loves Jesus loves God who sent Him.
The person who loves God loves Jesus, who God sent to the world.

Now, if you ask me who should we love MORE...? Then I think we should let Jesus tell us...

When the Pharisees heard that He silenced the Sadducees, they came together. 35 One of them, who was a lawyer, tested Him by asking Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”​

​

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:24-39)​

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Pancho,
Eight days? Suddenly you disappear for 8 days? No explanation, no apology, no "I won't be able to talk for 8 days" - NOTHING! I don't get it. Suddenly you just drop off the map. Is that what you do at your job too? I hope you don't do that with your wife - or kids - or friends. You just disappeared from the radar. Hopefully you don't do that with God.

My apologies, dwight.
You're right. I should have left a message.
Please forgive me. Next trip I will let my friends in the Forum know.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

, but if you're going to be "on and off", forget it - I'll take my marbles and play somewhere else.

I will be "on and off" over the next days because of my work, but I hope to write at least every 48-72 hours.

 

[dwight92070]

My apologies, dwight.
You're right. I should have left a message.
Please forgive me. Next trip I will let my friends in the Forum know.

Thank you. I accept your apology and forgive you - and thank you for the heads up of "every 48-72 hours.

Yes, of course.
My Trinitarian brothers and sisters are intelligent and noble. They have reasons to believe in the Trinity, including some verses in the Bible.


Approximately 200. That would make the proportion 50:50 with those verses in which God and Jesus are presented as separate beings.
Now, if not 200, perhaps one unequivocal statement from Jesus saying that He is God.
We have one unequivocal statement from Jesus in that His Father is the Only God.

{Dwight} I believe God is testing you and all who reject the Deity of Jesus. He deliberately does not grant your demand that Jesus would come right out and say, "I am God.", even though He has provided more than enough evidence that He is. But His evidence is not good enough for you and the other doubters.

If you try to explain that Jesus was "speaking like a man" in that verse, that's good. I am also a man. You are also a man.
So, we, as men, should follow the example of Jesus and consider The Father as the Only and True God.


The Bible has been interpreted in many ways over centuries precisely because some verses are interpreted in more than one way.


Then, why would Jesus and God be mentioned separately over and over and over? What is your alternative explanation?

{Dwight} I've answered this before. My answer is that I believe in the Trinity, where there are 3 persons, distinct from each other and yet each is God.

 

[dwight92070]

The person who loves Jesus loves God who sent Him.
The person who loves God loves Jesus, who God sent to the world.

Now, if you ask me who should we love MORE...? Then I think we should let Jesus tell us...

When the Pharisees heard that He silenced the Sadducees, they came together. 35 One of them, who was a lawyer, tested Him by asking Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”​

​

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:24-39)​

{Dwight} Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (by comparison of his love for Me) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26
Here we have another test: Isn't this exactly the same love that the Father demands that He should receive, in the verse you quoted (Mark 12:30), only stated in a different way?
If you are honest, I think you will have to admit that yes, it is. If you want to ignore the truth, you will deny this.

"Exhibit K" Jesus demands that we love Him with the exact same love that the Father demands that we love Him. Therefore Jesus is God.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho, if Jesus was just a man, then why was it necessary for God to give Him a supernatural birth? Mary, a woman, was His mother, but God was literally His Father. If God wanted Jesus to just be a man, then He could have been born with a human father and a human mother, just like all men.
A human baby receives DNA from his mother and DNA from his father. Jesus received DNA from Mary, His mother, and ? (possibly DNA) from His Father.
We don't know exactly what Jesus received from His Father, but we do know this: that He cannot be just a man, given His miraculous birth.

 

[101G]

Pancho, if Jesus was just a man, then why was it necessary for God to give Him a supernatural birth? Mary, a woman, was His mother, but God was literally His Father. If God wanted Jesus to just be a man, then He could have been born with a human father and a human mother, just like all men.
A human baby receives DNA from his mother and DNA from his father. Jesus received DNA from Mary, His mother, and ? (possibly DNA) from His Father.
We don't know exactly what Jesus received from His Father, but we do know this: that He cannot be just a man, given His miraculous birth.

the Lord Jesus is not born, the Christ is born. other words, the son of God is born, but the son of man is not born. supportive scripture, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" flesh is born, spirit is given.

101G

 

[dwight92070]

the Lord Jesus is not born, the Christ is born. other words, the son of God is born, but the son of man is not born. supportive scripture, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" flesh is born, spirit is given.

101G

Total nonsense.

 

[101G]

Total nonsense.

GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for your reply, for it shows your IGNORANCE on the flesh/body and the spirit. second no human flesh will inherit eternal life. so your answer shows this lack of knowledge in this area.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

{Dwight} Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (by comparison of his love for Me) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26
Here we have another test: Isn't this exactly the same love that the Father demands that He should receive, in the verse you quoted (Mark 12:30), only stated in a different way?
If you are honest, I think you will have to admit that yes, it is. If you want to ignore the truth, you will deny this.

"Exhibit K" Jesus demands that we love Him with the exact same love that the Father demands that we love Him. Therefore Jesus is God.

In the passage you are quoting, Jesus is saying that, to become his disciples, we must first accept that we may be rejected by our family, persecuted and killed. He is not demanding love, glory or worship for Himself. Let's read the passage and please notice the highlights in green.

Large crowds went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.​

​

28 “For who among you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost to see whether he has resources to complete it? 29 Otherwise, perhaps, after he has laid the foundation and is not able to complete it, all who see it will begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to complete it.’​

​

31 “Or what king, going to wage war against another king, does not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Otherwise, while the other is yet at a distance, he sends a delegation and requests conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, any of you who does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.​

Loving Jesus means following Him. His teachings are the Only Way to the Father and should take precedence over any other thing... but not because the final objective of our love is Jesus. Our final objective is God, our Father. Jesus is the Way to the Father and came with one interest in mind: our reconciliation with God, our Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Loving Jesus means following Him. His teachings are the Only Way to the Father and should take precedence over any other thing... but not because the final objective of our love is Jesus. Our final objective is God, our Father. Jesus is the Way to the Father and came with one interest in mind: our reconciliation with God, our Father.

Let me add that Jesus Himself stated that the reason to love Him is that He had been sent by the Father.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me. (John 8:42)​

What Jesus was interested in us to accept is that He had been sent by the Father. If we accept this, we will love Him and follow Him.

For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came from God. (John 16:27)​

​

If you ask me "Why do you love Jesus?" The first answer would be "because I love God. Since God sent Jesus, of course I will love Jesus!".

"everyone who loves the Father loves the one born of the Father". (1 John 5:1)​

 

[dwight92070]

In the passage you are quoting, Jesus is saying that, to become his disciples, we must first accept that we may be rejected by our family, persecuted and killed. He is not demanding love, glory or worship for Himself. Let's read the passage and please notice the highlights in green.

Large crowds went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.​

​

28 “For who among you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost to see whether he has resources to complete it? 29 Otherwise, perhaps, after he has laid the foundation and is not able to complete it, all who see it will begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to complete it.’​

​

31 “Or what king, going to wage war against another king, does not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Otherwise, while the other is yet at a distance, he sends a delegation and requests conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, any of you who does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.​

Loving Jesus means following Him. His teachings are the Only Way to the Father and should take precedence over any other thing... but not because the final objective of our love is Jesus. Our final objective is God, our Father. Jesus is the Way to the Father and came with one interest in mind: our reconciliation with God, our Father.

It's no wonder that you deny Jesus' Deity, because you deny the truth of scripture when it's plain as day. The Bible says that Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers:
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4

You are mistaken when you say that Jesus is not demanding love for Himself. He gives us the same message in Matthew 10:37-39, only using different words:
"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

So you see, Pancho, Jesus does demand our utmost love, just as God does. We are to love Him to the same degree that we love the Father, because He is God.

Pancho, I don't know if anyone has told you this, but contrary to Bahai teaching, you can't mix Christianity with Bahai, or with any other religion.

Jesus said that He alone was the way, the truth, and the life. Since He alone was the Son of God, sent from Him, and God in the flesh, there is no other path to God.

You can't follow Jesus PLUS some other religion. Solomon sinned greatly when he thought he could serve God and other gods, or at least allow his 700 wives to do so. They turned his heart away from the true God and caused the division of all Israel.

Jesus alone was born of Mary and God. No other "spiritual leader" has those "credentials" and therefore, should not be followed, nor should any other "spiritual teaching" be followed other than the teaching of Jesus.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says "If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; ..."

 

[mikesw]

Hi Mikesw and @dwight92070

I was on a trip with my wife in beautiful Guanajuato, Mexico.
I'm back in Mexico City... With a lot of work, but hope to participate in the forum from time to time.

Hope it was nice trip. I recognize that people participate sporadically here -- even if they have been consistent. I added the idea of strategic absence just as an afterthought.

 

[dwight92070]

Let me add that Jesus Himself stated that the reason to love Him is that He had been sent by the Father.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me. (John 8:42)​

What Jesus was interested in us to accept is that He had been sent by the Father. If we accept this, we will love Him and follow Him.

For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came from God. (John 16:27)​

​

If you ask me "Why do you love Jesus?" The first answer would be "because I love God. Since God sent Jesus, of course I will love Jesus!".

"everyone who loves the Father loves the one born of the Father". (1 John 5:1)​

Jesus said "Now, Father, GLORIFY ME TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." John 17:5

"Exhibit L" Jesus tells us that He was glorified with the Father, God, before the world was. No mere man can make such a claim, only the God/man, Jesus Christ. Therefore, Jesus is God.

This agrees with Revelation 5:11-14, where BOTH the Father and the Lamb receive equal glory and honor and blessing and dominion forever and ever.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It's no wonder that you deny Jesus' Deity, because you deny the truth of scripture when it's plain as day. The Bible says that Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers:

People have debated this topic for centuries. Do we agree on that?
Among those who have debated, there are many people who are willing to serve God with all their heart, both Trinitarians and Unitarians.

So there is absolutely no reason to think that the other person who holds a different view is denying the truth of Scripture.
Remember that Scripture is full of verses that indicate that Jesus is not God.
The Scripture also has verses that indicate that Jesus is God.

Can we agree that Scripture has verses that could be used to support one or other opinion?

 

[dwight92070]

People have debated this topic for centuries. Do we agree on that?
Among those who have debated, there are many people who are willing to serve God with all their heart, both Trinitarians and Unitarians.

So there is absolutely no reason to think that the other person who holds a different view is denying the truth of Scripture.
Remember that Scripture is full of verses that indicate that Jesus is not God.
The Scripture also has verses that indicate that Jesus is God.

Can we agree that Scripture has verses that could be used to support one or other opinion?

Of course this topic has been debated for centuries. What else is new? Ever since Jesus came and gave us the truth, there have been those who denounce the truth and exchange it for a lie. That's what Satan does.

There's every reason to think that. Why? Because that's my opinion. Those of you on your side probably think that I am denying the truth of scripture. Why? That's your opinion. There's absolutely no reason why we each of us cannot have our own opinion. So, sorry but you can't disallow my opinion nor can I disallow yours. One of us is right and the other one is wrong. Either Jesus is God or He isn't.

You said, "Remember that Scripture is full of verses that indicate that Jesus is not God." That's your opinion. If such verses exist I haven't seen them, nor have you shown me any verse that indicates that Jesus is not God.

No, I don't agree that there are scriptures that support the opinion that Jesus is not God. On the other hand, there are many that support the truth that He is God. In fact, I'm on "Exhibit L" now - there are twelve verses/passages that show that Jesus is God. You can disagree with all of those, but if you do, I think you are denying the truth of Scripture. You've given me zero evidence that Jesus is not God. On the contrary, I've given you twelve pieces of evidence to show that He is God. So we're at 0 and 12 right now. I'm sorry that you can't seem to find any such evidence, but I'm not surprised, because there is none.

 

[dwight92070]

Yes, of course.
My Trinitarian brothers and sisters are intelligent and noble. They have reasons to believe in the Trinity, including some verses in the Bible.


Approximately 200. That would make the proportion 50:50 with those verses in which God and Jesus are presented as separate beings.
Now, if not 200, perhaps one unequivocal statement from Jesus saying that He is God.
We have one unequivocal statement from Jesus in that His Father is the Only God.

If you try to explain that Jesus was "speaking like a man" in that verse, that's good. I am also a man. You are also a man.
So, we, as men, should follow the example of Jesus and consider The Father as the Only and True God.


The Bible has been interpreted in many ways over centuries precisely because some verses are interpreted in more than one way.


Then, why would Jesus and God be mentioned separately over and over and over? What is your alternative explanation?

Obviously because the Father and the Son are distinct from one another as the Trinity says, and as we have said over and over AND as the apostle John says in John 1:1, but you either don't understand this, or ignore it. Let's try again.

1. "In the beginning was the Word" John is obviously referring to Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God"

So, right off the bat, John tells us that the "Word" is eternal, so he equates "the Word" with God.


2. "and the Word was with God" The Word is DISTINCT from God. "With" means that they were separate.


3. "and the Word was God." So whoever the Word is, He is God. So who is the Word? There's only one who could be the Word and John confirms that in verse 14.

4. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Obviously Jesus is the "Word" and John said that the "Word was God" - so Jesus is God. John also said that "the Word became flesh"- so God became flesh. At the same time John says that He is "the only begotten from the Father". So Jesus is eternal, He was with God, He is God, He was the Word, and He became flesh, and He is the only begotten from the Father.

"Exhibit M" John calls the Word God and He calls Jesus the Word. Therefore, John calls Jesus God. John 1:1, 14

Now that makes 13 exhibits of scriptural confirmation that Jesus is God. Compared to your "0". You have not provided ONE verse that shows and confirms that Jesus is not God.

 

[dwight92070]

In these sentences, God is not calling the Messiah "God". That would be against all God has repeatedly said over the Scripture.
There is no other God than God. Period.
No Jew in the past, present or future has ever expected that the Messiah would be God.
The Messiah would be a king anointed by God, sent by God with the mission to establish the Kingdom of God. But the Messiah is not supposed to be God!!! Never, ever!
That's the meaning of Messiah: "Annointed"

Here are the verses of Psalms 45, from which the author of Hebrews is quoting.
What I highlighted in red refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. YHWH. The Father. The Only True God.
What I highlighted in green refers to the Messiah, to Christ, the king from the seed of David.

The Psalm is a song, a poem, and verse 6 is an interpolation refering to God, who appoints kings, particularly the Messiah.



My heart is overflowing with a good thought;
I am speaking my works for the king;
my tongue is the pen of a skilled scribe.
2 You are fairer than all the sons of men;
favor is poured on your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.

3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
with your splendor and your majesty.
4 In your majesty ride prosperously
because of truth and meekness and righteousness;
and your right hand will teach you awesome things.
5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the king’s enemies;
peoples will fall under you.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
the scepter of Your kingdom is an upright scepter.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, anointed you
with the oil of gladness above your companions.
8 All your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
from the ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad.
9 Kings’ daughters are among your honorable women;
at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.

Why are you engaging in deception here? I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you either ignorantly or intentionally leave out what the author of Hebrews said JUST BEFORE "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;".

The Hebrews author inserts, "But of the Son, (He says)" - so God is ADDRESSING THE SON when He says "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
But you conveniently leave that out. Why?

It is true that those words were not in Psalm 45:6, but that really doesn't matter, because whenever a New Testament author adds clarification, explanation, and/or interpretation to Old Testament words, we MUST go by that interpretation. The interpretations of the Old Testament by New Testament authors becomes the inspired word of God - it's NEVER the other way around.

God is therefore also addressing the Son when He says "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You ..."

"Exhibit N" God calls Jesus "God" twice in Hebrews 1:8-9, therefore Jesus is God."

Now I have presented 14 scriptural proofs that the Bible teaches us that Jesus is God. You have presented "0" that prove the opposite.

 

[101G]

2. "and the Word was with God" The Word is DISTINCT from God. "With" means that they were separate.

the scriptures do not agree with that statement. it's the same one PERSON. supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." this is not two separate and distinct persons just because "WITH" is used. do you agree? if not by scripture we get the revelation, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." do you understand now? the First is "ALSO" the last. for the term also means, "in addition; too", please look it up for yourself. according to the bible, the word is with God is the same as the first is with the last, the same ONE PERSON. and the term "WITH" in reference to the Godhead is in ORDINAL DESIGNATIONS.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Obviously because the Father and the Son are distinct from one another as the Trinity says,

Not only the Father and Jesus, dwight. We know that.
It is God and Jesus who are distinct from each another, as presented in over 200 verses.
Do you understand my point, even if you don’t agree with it?
The Bible presents God as one Being, and Jesus as another Being.