The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[dwight92070]

Dear @Grace ambassador
Dear @synergy

For every verse that indicates that Jesus is God, there are more than 40 that indicate He is not… and this may be a gross underestimation from my part. The proportion is overwhelmingly against the Trinity. Would you be interested in exploring this with me, @Grace ambassador ?
In correspondence, I will gladly comment on each verse you’ve kindly brought to our readers.

So you acknowledge that there are verses that indicate that Jesus is God. So how many verses that indicate that Jesus is God would it take for you to believe those verses? I thought we were supposed to believe ALL the verses in the word of God.
2 Timothy 3:16: "ALL scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; ..."

By the way, ALL of the verses that you have presented, that you say indicate that Jesus is not God - DON'T. Just because Jesus and God are mentioned separately in the same verse, that does not mean that Jesus is not God. So your claim that there 40 times more verses that say Jesus is not God, than those that say He is - is bogus.

 

[dwight92070]

I don't believe that we have a record of either of these happening. In Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21, some translators have put in the word "praise", but it actually means "to confess or agree, to acknowledge".
If "to glorify" each other is the same as worship, then they both worshiped each other. John 17:4 and 5
If to call one another "God" is the same as worship, then they both worshiped each other. Hebrews 1:8-9
Some say that He was worshiping the Father in Luke 22:39-46 in the Garden of Gethsemane, because He knelt down to pray, but His words are not words of praise and worship - they are words of an urgent and humble plea to be released from this terrible death, if the Father was willing. His kneeling seems to be more in line with His subjecting Himself to the Father's will. Again He was subject to the Father, but not less than the Father.

You (Pancho) said: Why that particular verse doesn't say that Jesus bows his head to the Father? I don't know. The verse is focusing on the relation of others to the Lamb, not on the relation of the Lamb and his Father.

Revelation 5:13 So you want to focus on one truth in the verse and ignore any other truths that can be gleaned from it? Is that how you would study any other subject? I would hope not.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho, who should we love more - God or Jesus?

 

[dwight92070]

1 Timothy 1:12-16. In these verses Jesus is either named or referred to 9 times. God is not mentioned once. So it's obvious who Paul is referring to in his praise at the end of these verses in verse 17 - the same person, Jesus Christ. To say that all of a sudden he is referring to the Father, would be taking it totally out of context. So what did he say about Jesus in verse 17?

Exhibit H "Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." Paul specifically calls Jesus "the only God", therefore, Jesus is God.

 

[dwight92070]

Luke 18:18-27 "A ruler questioned Him, saying, 'Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' But Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.' "

Was Jesus admitting that He was NOT good and therefore that He was NOT God?
Actually it was just the opposite, He was giving the ruler a gentle rebuke. It was as if He was saying, (If you think that I am just a man, then why would you call me good? Only God is good.)

Was Jesus good? Did He call Himself good? Yes and Yes!

"I am the GOOD SHEPHERD; the GOOD SHEPHERD lays down His life for the sheep ... I am the GOOD SHEPHERD and I know My own, and My own know Me, just as the Father know Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." John 10:11, 14-15

"Which of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? The one who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." John 8:46-47

Jesus not only claimed to be good, He claimed to be without sin. He also claimed that when you hear His words, you are hearing the words of God.

The author of Hebrews also says that Jesus was without sin. Hebrews 4:15 and 7:26

Paul too acknowledges that Jesus had no sin. 2 Cor. 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Back to the original passage in Luke: Jesus is telling the ruler, not only that He is good, but that He is God.

"Exhibit I" Jesus claims only God is good. Jesus claims to be good. Therefore, Jesus claims to be God.

"Exhibit J" Jesus claimed that when you hear His words, you are hearing the words of God. No one who is JUST A MAN can make such a claim. Whenever He spoke, God was speaking. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Again, why doesn't Jesus just come right out and tell the ruler, "I am God"? There are several possible reasons:

1. Jesus was humble, not proud and boastful.
2. Also, Jesus wants the Father to reveal to men who He is - as He said to Peter in Matthew 16:15-17. There the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Even Peter may or may not have known (at that time) that that was the same as declaring that Jesus WAS God. But we know that all the apostles eventually came to realize that Jesus WAS GOD. The apostle John said that when Jesus called God His own Father, He was making Himself equal with God. John 5:18
We can safely deduce that whatever one apostle knew and believed, eventually the other eleven knew and believed also. How can I say that? Because God's household, or His church was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone. Ephesians 2:19-20 So all twelve apostles had to have been on the same page, even as the prophets of the Old Testament were.
3, The ruler probably would have thought that Jesus was crazy. Imagine any man today going around saying "I am God".

 

[civic]

The author of Hebrews has God speaking to the Son saying, "Therefore God, your God, has anointed You ..." He says that the Father calls Jesus God but God also says that Jesus has a God. So it's not surprising to see Jesus, who was God in the flesh, saying that He has a God. The Father said it, so why couldn't the Son say it as well?

ditto

 

[dwight92070]

I thought Pancho wanted to go through the epistles, so I submitted #364, but - crickets. I was out of town Friday through Monday myself. Sorry I forgot to let you know. But I'm back, ready to go through Paul's letters, whenever you are.

 

[dwight92070]

By the way, I don't think there's any verses where God is called the King of kings and Lord of lords, but Jesus is called that three times:
I Tim. 6:15; Revelation 17:14 and 19:16. Some question the verse in Timothy, but the Revelation verses clearly identify Him as Jesus. That verse also calls that same "person" - "the only Sovereign", i.e. the NASB version. I understand that the actual word "sovereign" does NOT appear in the Bible.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho seems to have disappeared.

 

[mikesw]

Pancho seems to have disappeared.

Maybe he needs a little break. Can't always stick around in a forum.

 

[dwight92070]

I have prayed for Pancho, that he didn't have an emergency - or in case he did.
If that's not the case, and I hope it isn't, then I guess he wasn't real serious about going through all of the New Testament letters.

Or could it be that something we said, or scripture we quoted, hit home and he has changed his mind???

 

[mikesw]

I have prayed for Pancho, that he didn't have an emergency - or in case he did.
If that's not the case, and I hope it isn't, then I guess he wasn't real serious about going through all of the New Testament letters.

Or could it be that something we said, or scripture we quoted, hit home and he has changed his mind???

He also seemed to take a break in previous discussions when the fallacies of his view were exposed in great detail. Maybe he will return when he recovers. We certainly hope he does change his mind and realize there is no other way to the Father but through Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So you acknowledge that there are verses that indicate that Jesus is God.

Yes, of course.
My Trinitarian brothers and sisters are intelligent and noble. They have reasons to believe in the Trinity, including some verses in the Bible.

So how many verses that indicate that Jesus is God would it take for you to believe those verses?

Approximately 200. That would make the proportion 50:50 with those verses in which God and Jesus are presented as separate beings.
Now, if not 200, perhaps one unequivocal statement from Jesus saying that He is God.
We have one unequivocal statement from Jesus in that His Father is the Only God.

If you try to explain that Jesus was "speaking like a man" in that verse, that's good. I am also a man. You are also a man.
So, we, as men, should follow the example of Jesus and consider The Father as the Only and True God.

I thought we were supposed to believe ALL the verses in the word of God.

The Bible has been interpreted in many ways over centuries precisely because some verses are interpreted in more than one way.

By the way, ALL of the verses that you have presented, that you say indicate that Jesus is not God - DON'T. Just because Jesus and God are mentioned separately in the same verse, that does not mean that Jesus is not God.

Then, why would Jesus and God be mentioned separately over and over and over? What is your alternative explanation?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

He also seemed to take a break in previous discussions when the fallacies of his view were exposed in great detail. Maybe he will return when he recovers. We certainly hope he does change his mind and realize there is no other way to the Father but through Christ.

Hi Mikesw and @dwight92070

I was on a trip with my wife in beautiful Guanajuato, Mexico.
I'm back in Mexico City... With a lot of work, but hope to participate in the forum from time to time.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have prayed for Pancho, that he didn't have an emergency - or in case he did.

Thanks for your prayer, dwight.
Praying for each other is infinitely more important than debating.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The author of Hebrews has God speaking to the Son saying, "Therefore God, your God, has anointed You ..." He says that the Father calls Jesus God but God also says that Jesus has a God. So it's not surprising to see Jesus, who was God in the flesh, saying that He has a God. The Father said it, so why couldn't the Son say it as well?

In these sentences, God is not calling the Messiah "God". That would be against all God has repeatedly said over the Scripture.
There is no other God than God. Period.
No Jew in the past, present or future has ever expected that the Messiah would be God.
The Messiah would be a king anointed by God, sent by God with the mission to establish the Kingdom of God. But the Messiah is not supposed to be God!!! Never, ever!
That's the meaning of Messiah: "Annointed"

Here are the verses of Psalms 45, from which the author of Hebrews is quoting.
What I highlighted in red refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. YHWH. The Father. The Only True God.
What I highlighted in green refers to the Messiah, to Christ, the king from the seed of David.

The Psalm is a song, a poem, and verse 6 is an interpolation refering to God, who appoints kings, particularly the Messiah.



My heart is overflowing with a good thought;
I am speaking my works for the king;
my tongue is the pen of a skilled scribe.
2 You are fairer than all the sons of men;
favor is poured on your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.

3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
with your splendor and your majesty.
4 In your majesty ride prosperously
because of truth and meekness and righteousness;
and your right hand will teach you awesome things.
5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the king’s enemies;
peoples will fall under you.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
the scepter of Your kingdom is an upright scepter.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, anointed you
with the oil of gladness above your companions.
8 All your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
from the ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad.
9 Kings’ daughters are among your honorable women;
at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If "to glorify" each other is the same as worship, then they both worshiped each other. John 17:4 and 5

Hi Dwight

God shares his glory with Jesus, but also with every man who does good work, like you.
But glory, honor, and peace will be to every man who does good work—to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile (Romans 2:10)

God will share his glory with you
When Christ who is our life shall appear, then you also shall appear with Him in glory. (Col 3:4)

If to call one another "God" is the same as worship, then they both worshiped each other. Hebrews 1:8-9

I have made a comment on Hebrews 1:8-9 in previous post.

Some say that He was worshiping the Father in Luke 22:39-46 in the Garden of Gethsemane, because He knelt down to pray,

He wasn't just kneeling down, but also prostrating before His Father
He went a little farther, and falling on His face, He prayed, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” (Matthew 26:39)

So, the way Jesus prayed to God should have been similar to the way our Muslim brothers and sisters pray, in total submission to the will of God.
In that garden, Jesus recognized the Father (but not himself) as "The Only and True God". Days before, have answered to the doctor of the law that the most important commandment started with "Listen, Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is One".

but His words are not words of praise and worship

They are also words of worship. He calls his Father "The Only and True God", while he identifies himself as "He who you have Sent".
When you recognize, by words and actions, that Someone is the only and true God, you are worshipping that Being.

- they are words of an urgent and humble plea to be released from this terrible death, if the Father was willing.

That's precisely what I have seen people do in the middle of an earthquake in Mexico City. They know that God can save them, because God is God. I haven't heard them asking Jesus or the Holy Spirit for salvation.

His kneeling seems to be more in line with His subjecting Himself to the Father's will. Again He was subject to the Father, but not less than the Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Luke 18:18-27 "A ruler questioned Him, saying, 'Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' But Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.' "

Was Jesus admitting that He was NOT good and therefore that He was NOT God?
Actually it was just the opposite, He was giving the ruler a gentle rebuke. It was as if He was saying, (If you think that I am just a man, then why would you call me good? Only God is good.)

Of course Jesus was good.
Now, being "good" does not make anyone God.
The Bible is full from references to good, righteous, pure, holy people.

The point is that all goodness in you and me, and all goodness in Jesus, comes from the same source: God.

So Jesus was good because His Father, to whom he obeyed, is the Absolute Good. Jesus was highlighting that to the ruler who called him "Good Teacher". How do we know that?
Well, because Jesus said over and over that he didn't seek glory for himself, and that he just did what the Father told him to do.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You (Pancho) said: Why that particular verse doesn't say that Jesus bows his head to the Father? I don't know. The verse is focusing on the relation of others to the Lamb, not on the relation of the Lamb and his Father.

Revelation 5:13 So you want to focus on one truth in the verse and ignore any other truths that can be gleaned from it? Is that how you would study any other subject? I would hope not.

No. I like to focus in dozens, hundreds of verses
That's why I say that there are more about 200 verses in the Bible in which God and Jesus are presented as separate beings.
Plus the verses in which Jesus identifies his Father as the Only True God, and His personal God.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho,
Eight days? Suddenly you disappear for 8 days? No explanation, no apology, no "I won't be able to talk for 8 days" - NOTHING! I don't get it. Suddenly you just drop off the map. Is that what you do at your job too? I hope you don't do that with your wife - or kids - or friends. You just disappeared from the radar. Hopefully you don't do that with God.
Now, just as suddenly, you reappear, as if nothing ever happened. Well, something did happen. You just acted in a very peculiar way for 8 days. And I'm supposed to play along as if this is normal? This is not normal. A normal, responsible person would at least notify those with which he is interacting on the forum and, at the very least, say "I can't continue here for several days. This is a private matter, but I will try to return approximately on such and such day."
I (we) have no guarantee that you won't do the very same thing again, now that you're "back". If I don't get SOMETHING from you along those lines, then I'm done. We had agreed to go through the letters in the New Testament, but if you're going to be "on and off", forget it - I'll take my marbles and play somewhere else. I'm still willing to go through the New Test. letters, but not with you being unpredictable and silent for 8 days!