Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
May I ask what does "distinct" means for you, dwight?
The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The Bible in general, and Paul in particular, use the word "spirit" in several senses, not just as "Person".
For example,
For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and self-control. (2 Tim 1:7)
There are no distinct "Persons" who are Mr Power, Mr Love or Mr Self-control, and who are all of them God. And certainly, there is no evil Person called "Mr Fear" who God could send to us.
So, as I have shown in the text, Paul is not talking about the Trinity here. He is talking about the life of the spirit vs the life of the flesh.
And as I have shown in verse 3, Paul distinguishes God from Jesus, as he does in all his epistles. So God and Jesus are not the same being.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I believe that the most intimate nature of Christ, the Word, has existed always with God and is not created.
But this Word, let's remember, is presented in the Bible as the means, the instrument by which God creates things.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi Peterlag
I believe all human beings have flesh and have spirit.
It is not that spiritual people (those born again) have no flesh, or that carnal people (those not born again) have no spirit.
Let me use an example: sexual drive is in all of men: those who have been born again and those who have not.
The difference is that spiritual people put their sexual drive to the service of the spirit, while those who are carnal minded put their spirit to the service of sexual drive.
When Paul says that it is no longer him who lives, but Christ who lives in him, it means that his sexual drive (among other desires) are subject to the will of God.
dwight92070
Well-known member
[Pancho] The Spirit of God in Romans 8:9 does not refer to the Personhood or Being of God. It refers to the divine transformative power that make us live not according to the flesh but according to the life God's wants for us: the "life of the spirit".
The same applies to the spirit of Christ: following Christ is living in the life of the spirit, not the life of the flesh.
Paul is not talking about the Trinity, but of the life of the spirit vs the life of the flesh.
[Dwight] You are blatantly wrong. There is absolutlely NO indication that Paul is NOT referring to the "Personhood or the Being of God's Spirit" and the "Personhood or the Being" of the Spirit of Christ. Paul is telling us that they are equal because Jesus is God.
[Dwight] As I said early on in this thread, Paul uses "God" and "Christ" or "Jesus", interchangeably, and here is a perfect example. But instead of accepting the scripture at face value, you have to "explain" what it "really" is saying - when in fact you are squeezing the TRUTH right out of it. The Holy Spirit IS a person. Paul shows us here that sometimes He is called the Spirit of God and sometimes the Spirit of Christ.
[Dwight] No, NOT separate - distinct, but not different beings.
[Dwight] You said "So Jesus is not God for Paul." Actually, it's just the opposite. Paul equates God with Christ in Romans 8:9. He calls both God and Jesus our Savior at least 3 times in Titus. He calls both God and Jesus our Lord, throughout his letters. He says that God purchased the church with His own blood. Acts 20:28 Yet we know that Jesus shed His blood. He calls Jesus "the King Eternal ... the only God." 1 Timothy 1:17 He says that "God was revealed in the flesh ... taken up in glory." 1 Timothy 3:16 Paul says that in Christ dwells, "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". Colossians 2:9
So you are obviously misrepresenting who Paul is and what he believed.
The same applies to the spirit of Christ: following Christ is living in the life of the spirit, not the life of the flesh.
Paul is not talking about the Trinity, but of the life of the spirit vs the life of the flesh.
[Dwight] You are blatantly wrong. There is absolutlely NO indication that Paul is NOT referring to the "Personhood or the Being of God's Spirit" and the "Personhood or the Being" of the Spirit of Christ. Paul is telling us that they are equal because Jesus is God.
[Dwight] As I said early on in this thread, Paul uses "God" and "Christ" or "Jesus", interchangeably, and here is a perfect example. But instead of accepting the scripture at face value, you have to "explain" what it "really" is saying - when in fact you are squeezing the TRUTH right out of it. The Holy Spirit IS a person. Paul shows us here that sometimes He is called the Spirit of God and sometimes the Spirit of Christ.
Indeed, in the same chapter, just few verses above (Rom 8:3), Paul says that God sent his Beloved Son. So, once again, for Paul, God and Jesus are two separate beings. God is the Sender. Jesus is who is sent. So Jesus is not God for Paul.
[/QUOTE][Dwight] No, NOT separate - distinct, but not different beings.
[Dwight] You said "So Jesus is not God for Paul." Actually, it's just the opposite. Paul equates God with Christ in Romans 8:9. He calls both God and Jesus our Savior at least 3 times in Titus. He calls both God and Jesus our Lord, throughout his letters. He says that God purchased the church with His own blood. Acts 20:28 Yet we know that Jesus shed His blood. He calls Jesus "the King Eternal ... the only God." 1 Timothy 1:17 He says that "God was revealed in the flesh ... taken up in glory." 1 Timothy 3:16 Paul says that in Christ dwells, "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". Colossians 2:9
So you are obviously misrepresenting who Paul is and what he believed.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I also use "God" and "Jesus" interchangeably in many many sentences.
I love Jesus | I love God.
I follow Jesus | I follow God.
The words of Jesus | The words of God.
The works of Jesus | The works of God.
Those who reject Jesus | Those who reject God.
The influence of Jesus in my life | The influence of God in my life
The life Jesus wants me to live | The life God wants me to live
The Gospel of Jesus | The Gospel of God
And so on and so forth... I could build thousands of sentences like that.
That's the whole point of believing that Jesus is a Manifestation of God, as it is my personal conviction.
For that very same reason, it is relevant to this debate to notice how Paul and other inspired writers treat "God" and "Jesus" when mentioned in the same sentence, one next to the other.
dwight92070
Well-known member
It means there are differences, but they are not totally different Beings. In this case, they are both God.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
There are many indications, all spread in Romans, where Paul refers to God as a Person, a Person who is not Christ. From the begining of the epistle to the end. So, there are dozens of indications.
Just take the very beginning of Romans, the very first seven verses, to understand Pau'ls view:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God, ... concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord,
...Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, isn't it clear, my friend, that for Paul Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Isn't it clear that God is the Father?
So, if we ask a child after reading this.. What is Jesus Christ to God? The child will answer "His Son".
And if we give the child John 20:17 or Revelation3:12 and ask him: What is God to Jesus Christ? He will answer "His God".
So, Jesus is God's Son.
God is Jesus' God.
God is not the Son of Jesus.
Jesus is not the God of God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
And just like I feared we are not on the same page.
Romans 8:5-9
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
If there are differences between God and Jesus, (many or few) then God is not Jesus nor Jesus is God.
Our readers know Pancho is not Dwight and Dwight is not Pancho precisely because there are differences.
Now, if you think "Pancho are Dwight are both human", you're right. We share that essence, that common trait.
But then, if you think that Jesus and God are both "God", "God" would mean for you an essence, a category, a common trait or characteristic
The God of the Bible, however, reveals as a Person, not as an essence, a category, a common trait or characteristic.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Wrong, the person of the Holy Spirit is Himself power, love and self-control and all the other fruit of the Spirit that we read about in Galatians 5:22-23. Fear does not come from the Holy Spirit, except the fear of God.
On the contrary, he is referring to the three persons in the Godhead, not deliberately teaching the Trinity concept, but referring to each one, nonetheless. The concept of the Trinity appears to be assumed by Paul, because of all people, he knew God quite thoroughly and accurately, given his revelations that he received.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Your sexual drive is alive or dead, my friend? Mine is alive, fortunately... much less than when I was young, but alive
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
How could Paul have assumed the concept of Trinity, if he was raised as a Jew, and none of the Jews he knew, or spoke to, or wrote to, conceived the Trinity?
dwight92070
Well-known member
The Bible NEVER calls Jesus the "means" or the "instrument by which God creates things". Using such words only confuses the truth.
Hi Pancho. Good to see you again.
Paul didn't assume anything. Paul emphasized that he received the Gospel directly from Jesus. As evidence, he offers the following information in Galatians 1:11–12:
“I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ"
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear Dwight
No one in the Bible has ever taught that God has blood. Why would you think that God has blood?
Over and over, the Bible (including Paul in numerous instances) refers to the blood of Jesus, not to the blood of God.
What happens in this passage, then? A copy error or translation error. Just that.
"His own" should have been translated by "his own Son", to be compatible with all other Scriptures.
That's why several translations now yield the verse differently:
Watch yourselves and the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as supervisors, to shepherd God’s church, which he obtained with the death of his own Son. (CEB)
“Watch out for yourselves, and for all the flock in which the Ruach HaKodesh has placed you as leaders, to shepherd God’s Messianic community, which he won for himself at the cost of his own Son’s blood. (CJB)
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he obtained through the blood of his own Son. (LEB)
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock in which the Holy Spirit · has placed you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son (MOUNCE)
Be careful for yourselves and for all the people the Holy Spirit has given to you to oversee. You must be like shepherds to the church of God, which he bought with the death of his own son. (NCV)
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (NET)
Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (NRVSA)
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (RSV)
No one in the Bible has ever taught that God has blood. Why would you think that God has blood?
Over and over, the Bible (including Paul in numerous instances) refers to the blood of Jesus, not to the blood of God.
What happens in this passage, then? A copy error or translation error. Just that.
"His own" should have been translated by "his own Son", to be compatible with all other Scriptures.
That's why several translations now yield the verse differently:
Watch yourselves and the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as supervisors, to shepherd God’s church, which he obtained with the death of his own Son. (CEB)
“Watch out for yourselves, and for all the flock in which the Ruach HaKodesh has placed you as leaders, to shepherd God’s Messianic community, which he won for himself at the cost of his own Son’s blood. (CJB)
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he obtained through the blood of his own Son. (LEB)
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock in which the Holy Spirit · has placed you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son (MOUNCE)
Be careful for yourselves and for all the people the Holy Spirit has given to you to oversee. You must be like shepherds to the church of God, which he bought with the death of his own son. (NCV)
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (NET)
Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (NRVSA)
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (RSV)
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Well, the Bible uses "through". What is the reason for that, then?
Through is a preposition that indicates that the noun is a mean, a way.
dwight92070
Well-known member
You are obsessed with God and Jesus being mentioned separately. But Jesus Himself and the Bible mix things up, so that you can't come to your simple conclusion that Jesus is not God.
John 1:1,14 contradicts your conclusion. So I'll go with the Bible and the apostle John, not you. Every Exhibit I've presented, all of which are directly from the Bible, contradicts your conclusion. So I'll go with what the authors of scripture say, not what you say.
Jesus said: "I and the Father are One." "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me." "Before Abraham came into being, I AM." Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God." "Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.""You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." All of these scriptures contradict your mistaken conclusion.
Even the supernatural birth of Jesus makes it obvious that He is more than a man. By the way, you have never responded to that truth, that He was conceived and born from the virgin Mary's womb, and that His Father was God AND the Holy Spirit - Luke 1:35. Talk about a reference to the Trinity!
dwight92070
Well-known member
Let's put it this way. From his writings, He knew that the Father was God, the Holy Spirit was God, and that Jesus was God. He also knew that each was distinct from the other. I believe all the apostles knew this, (most likely not right away after Jesus ascended, but quite soon after) even though they didn't have a name for it.
Remember Jesus told them that when the Holy Spirit comes, He would teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all that He said to them.
