The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[Pancho Frijoles]

…If that's the case then they would have to be perpetually bowing down and worshiping everything around them at all times. What a crazy existence that would be.

Do you know what pantheism is? Do you know how pantheist people live and how they worship existence?
A pantheist doesn’t worship every single stone, tree or man PRECISELY because their God is one and impersonal.

Here in the US, there are many companies that say that you can receive the personal touch if you do business with them. If companies can be personal then God can certainly be personal.

…See what I wrote above. Here in the US companies strive to be personal. I guess it's different in Mexico.

No corporation is personal. Neither in San Diego nor in Tijuana.
Is it so difficult to distinguish a Personal God from a non Personal God?
If God is a group of persons, then God is not a personal God. It is an impersonal abstraction.

But You, my brother, do not worship an abstract, impersonal God.
Following the example and teaching of Jesus, you pray every day to one single Mind. You subject to one single Will… Just like me and most people in the Forum, I guess.

Anyways, the Greek stands. If you want to know what the NT truly says, you need to study the Greek. You don't necessarily have to be 100% proficient in the language.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

'Jesus saith unto him,
I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father,
but by Me.'
(Joh 14:6)

Hello there, @Rowan,

A 'Touchstone' is a plumbline, a measure by which things are judged. In the light of that, why do you say that the term, 'Trinity', is the touchstone of truth? For the Lord Jesus Christ has said that He, Himself, is the Truth, the Word of God bodily. Surely therefore He, and the written word, is the measure by which truth should be measured, and not terminology which is not even found in the pages of the Scriptures themselves.

The word of God is packed with instances where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seen at work together, that cannot be denied. So why allow terminology which is of man's devising to cause discord. Just allow the word of God to have the last word.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

All the Apostles understood Greek and many of them could write in Greek.

How do you support the idea that fishers of Galilee could know enough Greek as to write pieces of literature?

I would think that Jesus' liinguistic capabilities not only reached the Apostles' capabilities but far surpassed them.

Jesus did not write “Theos”. On the contrary, He quoted from the Torah the Shema, Israel in Hebrew: YHWH your God is One.

Huh? That area of the world (Eastern Mediterranean) had Greek as its Lingua Franca for centuries before the Roman Empire absorbed it but Greek remained the Lingua Franca of that region.

It’s absolutely irrelevant if some apostles knew enough Greek as to sell their fish at the market and survive a short trip to Decapolis. They learnt the revealed truths in Hebrew at the synagogues and in Aramaic at the feet of Jesus. They thought about God and talked about God in Aramaic. Their concept of God was Jewish, and therefore, they believed in One Personal God. They never ever questioned Jesus about whether the Father was the God of Israel.

Huh? Are you seriously saying that Matthew, Peter, Mark, Luke did not write their New Testament books? Seriously?

In regards to Luke, probably he did write them.
However, it is extremely unlikely that Peter wrote a single line of the epistles attributed to him. Probably it was the work of a disciple of Peter with strong knowledge of highly literary Greek.
Regarding Matthew and Mark, could you bring to our readers a single verse where Matthew or Mark claim to have written the gospels attributed to them?

Kurios (Lord) comes to mind among many other titles given to Jesus and the Father.

The word Kurios in Greek does not mean deity,
So let me ask you again: if “Theos” does not refer to a Personal God, what word should Paul have used if he wanted to refer to One Personal God?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

op: Trinity Touchstone of Truth
Q: Is The Lord Jesus Christ Almighty God?

Precious friend, Great Idea! - which has already been accomplished!:

Over 160 Biblical [ last count was about 500 Passages! ] Reasons:

Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!​

Here are my top 13 reasons to get started toward 160+ - and, please
Be Very Richly Edified and Encouraged in God's Word Of Truth!:

JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God: ​

1) God Was Manifest In The Flesh! (1 Timothy 3:16 AV)

JESUS CHRIST Was Manifest In The Flesh! (John 1:14 AV)​

2) JESUS CHRIST Is EMMANUEL

“interpreted = God With us!" (Matthew 1:21-23 AV)​

3) The SON, JESUS CHRIST Is Called

God, By His Own Father! (Hebrews 1:8 AV)​

4) JESUS CHRIST Is Called

The Great God And Saviour! (Titus 2:13 AV)​

5) JESUS CHRIST Is Called

The Mighty God! (Isaiah 9:6 cp Jeremiah 32:18 AV)​

6) JESUS CHRIST Is Called

The True God And Eternal Life! (1 John 5:20 AV)​

7) JESUS CHRIST Is Over All, God,

Blessed For Ever. Amen! (Romans 9:5 AV)​

8) All the angels of God Worship Him!

(Hebrews 1:6 AV), therefore, It Is Impossible​

for JESUS CHRIST to be = “Michael the archangel!”​

Therefore, All The Evidence In The Pure And Holy Word Of God​

Plainly And Clearly Teaches All humble students That:​

​

JESUS CHRIST Is God Almighty! Amen?​

9) JESUS CHRIST was worshipped!

(Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9; Luke 24:52 AV)​

a) Not once did JESUS Say, "See thou do it not,"  as "an angel, NOT​

to be worshipped," spoke  in Revelation 19:10, And, 22:8-9 AV!​

​

b) Since Only The LORD God is to be worshipped! ​

(Exodus 34:14; Psalms 29:2, 45:11, 86:9, et al; ​

Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 22:9 AV): ​

​

c) Holy Scripture Clearly Teaches us JESUS CHRIST Is God! ​

​

10) Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall

confess to God! (Romans 14:11; Isaiah 45:21-23 AV).​

​

The God "every tongue is confessing to,”​

Is The LORD JESUS CHRIST! (Philippians 2:11)​

​

11) JESUS CHRIST Is Called The Saviour!

(Luke 2:11; Acts 5:30-31, 13:23; Titus 1:4, 2:13)​

(2 Peter 1:1, 11, 2:20, 3:18, 1 John 4:14 AV)​

​

Only Jehovah God Alone Is The Saviour!​

(Isaiah 43:3, 11, 45:15, 21; Hosea 13:4; Luke 1:47)​

(1 Timothy 1:1, 2:3, 4:10; Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4; Jude 1:25 AV)​

​

Therefore, JESUS CHRIST Is God!​

12) JESUS CHRIST Forgave sins! (Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5)

Only God Can Forgive sins! (Mark 2:7 AV)​

Pure And Holy Scripture Teaches us (Titus 2:13 AV):​

​

JESUS CHRIST Is The Great God, The ​

Only Saviour Who Can Forgive sin!!​

​

If we Deny His Deity, how can He Forgive us our sins?​

​

After all, It is Only God's Own BLOOD (Acts 20:28 AV), ​

That Has Power To "Cleanse us From All sin!" Amen?​

​

And, Finally, Who Is The Judge Of All?

13) God Almighty Is The Judge Of All! 

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things,​

and doest the same, that thou shalt escape The Judgment Of God?…​

​

...But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself Wrath​

against The Day Of Wrath and Revelation Of The Righteous Judgement Of God!​

(Romans 2:3, 5 AV)​

​

...God The Judge of all!...God Will Judge!… (Hebrews 12:23, 13:4 AV)  ​

​

...Strong Is The LORD God Who Judges!... (Revelation 18:8 AV)​

​

JESUS CHRIST Is God, Because All The Verses In The Holy Bible, ​

That Talk About God Being The Judge, Must Refer To JESUS CHRIST, ​

Since He Alone Judges! The Father Judges no man! (John 5:22 AV)​

​

The Father Has Committed All JUDGMENT To His​

SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!! (John 5:22 AV)​

​

Why?:​

​

"That All men should honour The SON, even as ​

 they honour The Father. He that honoureth not The SON ​

 honoureth not The Father Who Hath Sent HIM!" (John 5:23 AV)​

​

The Final Judgment Has This Important Conclusion To This Eternal Matter!:​

​

"And I saw a 'great white throne', and Him that sat on it, from Whose Face the earth​

and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead,​

small and great, stand before God [ JESUS CHRIST, The Righteous Judge! ];​

​

and the books [ link ] were opened: and another book was opened,​

which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things​

which were written in the books, according to their works..."​

(Revelation 20:11-15 AV)​

--------------------------

For the humble who have acknowledged This Truth, and are journeying toward:

God's 'Bema Seat' Judgment:​

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which​

The Lord, The Righteous Judge, Shall Give me at That Day [ link ], and​

not to me only, but unto all them also who love His Appearing."​

(2 Timothy 4:8 AV) . . . . . . . . . [ The Great God And Saviour Titus 2:13 AV ]​

Amen.

Dear @Grace ambassador
Dear @synergy

For every verse that indicates that Jesus is God, there are more than 40 that indicate He is not… and this may be a gross underestimation from my part. The proportion is overwhelmingly against the Trinity. Would you be interested in exploring this with me, @Grace ambassador ?
In correspondence, I will gladly comment on each verse you’ve kindly brought to our readers.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.'
(Eph 2:8)

Hello @Rowan,

In a good many minds, it is the acknowledged doctrine that faith is the gift of God. This, of itself, if used and understood Scripturally is a blessed and wholesome teaching. Similarly we could say "thought is the gift of God", yet no one would advance as the corollary "therefore no one can think apart from some specially wrought miracle".

The passage of Scripture of course which is in mind is that magnificent verse of Ephesians 2, (above). The word translated, 'that', is in the neuter gender. The word translated 'faith' is in the feminine gender, consequently the word 'that' cannot refer in the Greek to 'faith'. Moreover, salvation can conceivably be 'of works', but faith cannot be. We must be careful not to confuse Ephesians 2:8-9 with 1 Corinthians 12:9,

'For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;'
(1Cor. 12:8-9)

Here faith is grouped with such Pentecostal gifts as tongues, interpretation of tongues, the discerning of spirits, the gift of prophecy and the working of miracles. These gifts were to believers and were given in connexion with the practical outworking of the truth as it pertained to the Acts period. Faith, in this context, cannot be lifted out apart from the rest of these evidential gifts. It is important to realize that all of them were for saved people and have no reference to initial salvation by grace or faith in Christ.

Coming back to the passage in Ephesians 2, we should understand this to teach that the whole plan and scheme of salvation is one 'by grace-through Faith', and that all of it, not faith by itself, is the gift of God. It is quite erroneous to tell an unsaved person that God must first give him the faith before he can believe in Christ. Nor will any man ever be able to say truthfully, 'I could not believe because faith was not given to be by God'. A conception such as this is a perversion of truth.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[synergy]

No corporation is personal. Neither in San Diego nor in Tijuana.
Is it so difficult to distinguish a Personal God from a non Personal God?
If God is a group of persons, then God is not a personal God. It is an impersonal abstraction.

But You, my brother, do not worship an abstract, impersonal God.
Following the example and teaching of Jesus, you pray every day to one single Mind. You subject to one single Will… Just like me and most people in the Forum, I guess.

The Church you attend is definitely personal. I'd hate to think that your Baha'i gatherings are "abstract" and "impersonal".

How do you support the idea that fishers of Galilee could know enough Greek as to write pieces of literature?

Present your evidence. You are up against the fact that Greek was the Lingua Franca of the Eastern Meditteranean. Why do you think that the NT was written in Greek?

Jesus did not write “Theos”. On the contrary, He quoted from the Torah the Shema, Israel in Hebrew: YHWH your God is One.

Are you seriously saying that Jesus did not understand and was not capable of orally communicating in Greek?

It’s absolutely irrelevant if some apostles knew enough Greek as to sell their fish at the market and survive a short trip to Decapolis. They learnt the revealed truths in Hebrew at the synagogues and in Aramaic at the feet of Jesus. They thought about God and talked about God in Aramaic. Their concept of God was Jewish, and therefore, they believed in One Personal God. They never ever questioned Jesus about whether the Father was the God of Israel.

Fact: The Epistles they authored and their understanding and thoughts were written in Greek. You're flying in the face of evidence.

In fact, you're sounding gnostic in that what was communicated in the NT was insufficient.

In regards to Luke, probably he did write them.
However, it is extremely unlikely that Peter wrote a single line of the epistles attributeEpistles.
Probably it was the work of a disciple of Peter with strong knowledge of highly literary Greek.
Regarding Matthew and Mark, could you bring to our readers a single verse where Matthew or Mark claim to have written the gospels attributed to them?

So what if Peter used a disciple/scribe to dictate to? The Epistle was still authenticated by having Peter's name explicitly written into the Epistle. This is a very feeble attack on the Apostles on your part.

The word Kurios in Greek does not mean deity,
So let me ask you again: if “Theos” does not refer to a Personal God, what word should Paul have used if he wanted to refer to One Personal God?

It was the Alexandrian Jews themselves who assigned the name of Kurios to the OT God in the Septuagint (LXX). Now if you want to file a complaint against that, I'm sure there's an Alexandrian Synagogue you can mail your complaint to.

In summary, the Greek NT stands. If you want to know what the NT truly says, you need to study the Greek. That is open to one and all which dispels any gnosticism whatsoever.

 

[synergy]

Dear @Grace ambassador
Dear @synergy

For every verse that indicates that Jesus is God, there are more than 40 that indicate He is not… and this may be a gross underestimation from my part. The proportion is overwhelmingly against the Trinity. Would you be interested in exploring this with me, @Grace ambassador ?
In correspondence, I will gladly comment on each verse you’ve kindly brought to our readers.

You still haven't effectively answered for John 8:58 coupled with Ex 3:14, and you wish to go up against @Grace ambassador's list?

Tell you what. Why don't you give us your best 3 verses where you can claim that Christ explcitly says that he is not God? That way we can all quickly dispense with the Arian Heresy in short order.

 

[101G]

You still haven't effectively answered for John 8:58 coupled with Ex 3:14, and you wish to go up against @Grace ambassador's list?

Tell you what. Why don't you give us your best 3 verses where you can claim that Christ explcitly says that he is not God? That way we can all quickly dispense with the Arian Heresy in short order.

not to get into your conversation, but why use John 8:58 coupled with Ex 3:14 to prove that the Christ is God. well the Christ is not God, but the Lord Jesus is God. Christ was not in the OT, but the Lord Jesus was. Christ is Flesh blood and bone. it is the spirit that is in that flesh bone and blood that is God, the (spirit). that flesh is not God, but the spirit in that flesh is God.

now, if you ask if Jesus is God YES, for 101G understand your thinking, because the flesh takes on the Identity of the spirit that is in it.

but 101G have a question for you, "is not GOD only one person?"

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Church you attend is definitely personal. I'd hate to think that your Baha'i gatherings are "abstract" and "impersonal".

A religious community, just as a family, company, country, and this Forum are all concepts denoting impersonal entities.
Your church also is impersonal… but You are personal.
Your relation with the church is impersonal. Your relation with each of your fellows is personal.

Your marriage is an impersonal entity. You can’t have a personal relationship with your marriage. You have a personal relation with your wife.
By the same way, you can’t have a personal relationship with a Divine Assembly, or with a Divine Attribute.

 

[synergy]

A religious community, just as a family, company, country, and this Forum are all concepts denoting impersonal entities.
Your church also is impersonal… but You are personal.
Your relation with the church is impersonal. Your relation with each of your fellows is personal.

Your marriage is an impersonal entity. You can’t have a personal relationship with your marriage. You have a personal relation with your wife.
By the same way, you can’t have a personal relationship with a Divine Assembly, or with a Divine Attribute.

A Church or Marriage is made up of Persons that make it personal. Same thing for God. God is 3 Persons that make our encounter with God personal.

BTW, I'm wondering if you would like to take me up on my challenge for you to present your 3 best verses where you claim that Christ explcitly says that he is not God. That way we can all quickly dispense with the Arian Heresy in short order.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A Church or Marriage is made up of Persons that make it personal.

No.
It is precisely because it is an association of minds that a church or a marriage are not personal.
It is precisely because they are not personal entities that why every man and woman needs to repent from their own bad choices, and will be rewarded according to their own deeds.

Same thing for God. God is 3 Persons that make our encounter with God personal.

If you still don't understand why a church, a marriage, Coca Cola Company or the United Nations are not personal entities, but abstractions that refer to collections of personal entities, I am afraid I am not smart enough to explain this clearly to you.
The Holy Spirit, though, will let us know what is better for our spiritual growth, and God will be merciful with my weakness and yours.

I hope most of our readers in this Forum will keep coming to the One and True God with contrite heart through Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So what if Peter used a disciple/scribe to dictate to?

This is what most likely happened.
I said "a disciple of Peter" in my post. I beg you to read my posts more carefully.

Such disciple would be very well educated or skillful in highly literary Greek, and chose the terms he could, on the basis of the linguistic menu Greek had to offer. If Greek lacked a word to represent the concept of One Personal God, it is not the fault of anyone.

My point is that Peter, the apostle, thought of God in Aramaic and Hebrew, like his Master, Jesus Christ.
Peter believed, like the rest of Jews, in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as One Personal God, who was not Jesus Christ, as attested in the Book of Acts 3:13.

"The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Son Jesus, whom you handed over and denied in the presence of Pilate..."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Are you seriously saying that Jesus did not understand and was not capable of orally communicating in Greek?

Do you seriously think I am saying that?
I beg you to read my posts more carefully.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are up against the fact that Greek was the Lingua Franca of the Eastern Meditteranean. Why do you think that the NT was written in Greek?

Why do you think that I am "up against the fact that Greek was the Lingua Franca of the Eastern Mediterranean"?
I beg you to read my posts more carefully.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Fact: The Epistles they authored and their understanding and thoughts were written in Greek. You're flying in the face of evidence.

If the Biblical authors had written in Chinese for the Chinese audience of their time, they would have referred to Tian (heavens) to mean God.
And then, someone Chinese man like you would be claiming that God and heavens are synonyms.

It is an error to try to extract theological meanings from the Greek of the New Testament ignoring the Hebraic Scriptures, Jewish theology and Jewish context.

Jesus Christ did not come to teach a new religion, a new gospel or a new God.... and for sure, Peter did not announce a new triune God, but the same God of their ancestors.

"The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Son Jesus, whom you handed over and denied in the presence of Pilate..." (Acts 3:13)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You still haven't effectively answered for John 8:58 coupled with Ex 3:14, and you wish to go up against @Grace ambassador's list?

Tell you what. Why don't you give us your best 3 verses where you can claim that Christ explcitly says that he is not God? That way we can all quickly dispense with the Arian Heresy in short order.

Dear @Grace ambassador and synergy

John 8:58 does not point to the deity of Christ. I will show you why in three arguments.

1. The passage is not about the deity of Christ, but about the preeminence of the Word of Christ, against any arrogant claims based on lineage.
2. Throughout this passage Jesus insists over and over that He is a person sent by God... not God!
3. The "I am" of this passage has nothing to do with the "I am who I am" of Exodus, which is a Name of the Father of Jesus, and not of Jesus, as attested by Peter in Acts 3:13.

Let's start with the first argument. This is what happened in 10 "give-and-takes" between Jesus and his enemies.

1. The enemies of Christ were boasting about Abrahamic lineage. "They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s seed and have never been in bondage to anyone." (John 8:33) "Abraham is our father" (8:39)

2. Christ told them that they were not authentic Abraham's lineage, because of their evil works. "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this." (8:39,40)

3. The enemies go one step further. They boast about being not just children of Abraham, but children of God Himself. They make this declaration mocking Jesus as a probable bastard: Then they said to Him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father: God.” (8:41)

4. Jesus replies in even stronger terms. His enemies are not children of God, but children of the devil... again, due to their evil works. “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me... You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.... you are not of God.” (v 42-27, extracts)

5. The enemies do not give up and accuse Jesus of being possessed by a demon “Do we not rightly say that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” (v. 48)

6. Jesus replies that He has not a demon and that He didn't come to seek glory for Himself, but for the Father. “I do not have a demon. But I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. I do not seek glory for Myself. There is One who seeks it and judges." (v 49.50) and very importanty, Jesus tells them about how to avoid spiritual death: "Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (v 51)

7. Finally, Jesus' enemies find a perfect occasion to accuse them of blasphemy: Jesus was pretending to be greater than their father Abraham, because while Abraham had died (physically), and Jesus was promising to free persons from (physical) death. “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham and the prophets died, and You say, ‘If a man keeps My word, he shall never taste death.’ “Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets are dead! Who do You make Yourself out to be?” (v 52.53)

8. Jesus explains that He is not pretending to be greater than Abraham by His own merits, but by the merits of God who have sent Him: “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God... (v.54). Jesus also says that Abraham had seen Jesus coming: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He saw it and was glad.” (v. 56)

9. Jesus enemies can't explain how Jesus can say that Abraham had saw Jesus, since Jesus was so young. “You are not yet fifty years old. Have You seen Abraham?” (v.57) Again, Jews could not understand that Jesus was talking spiritually, figuratively, about his Word conferring eternal life and about Abraham seeing Jesus.

10. Then comes the punch line, in which Jesus destroys any preeminence based on genetic linage and teaches the preeminece of His Word: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (v.58)

Jesus had not claimed to be the God of Israel. Jesus had claimed to be the Messiah, the Word of God, which, if followed, if practiced, is preexistent and preeminent over a genetic lineage from Abraham. The Gospel, according to Revelation 14:6, is eternal and is the same across history for all mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The SECOND ARGUMENT: Throughout this passage Jesus insists over and over that He is a person sent by God... not God!

I'll keep this post short.
I just beg you to read the highlights in green of all verses I have quoted in my post 336.
Jesus is telling his audience that

• He has come from God (so He is not God, otherwise He would be saying He sent Himself)
• He has not come of his own authority (so He is not God, as God does not need the authority of anyone else)
• It is God who glorifies him. He does not glorify Himself (so He is not God, since God is the source of his own glory: does not get it from someone else)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The THIRD ARGUMENT: The "I am" of this passage has nothing to do with the "I am who I am" of Exodus, which is a Name of the Father of Jesus, and not of Jesus, as attested by Peter in Acts 3:13.

The "I AM WHO I AM" or YHWH, the name of God pronounced by his Messenger in the burning bush, came along with other identification name: "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". Let's read from Exodus 3

The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush...
Moses said to God, “I am going to the children of Israel and will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ When they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You will say this to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
God, moreover, said to Moses, “Thus you will say to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

So, the God of Israel, worshiped by Jesus, his apostles and their audiences, was known not only as YHWH, but as the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". Well, let´s see what Peter preached to the Jews about such God:

When Peter saw it, he answered the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this man? Or why do you stare at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk? The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Son Jesus, whom you handed over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him (Acts 3:12,13)

What has Peter said?
That the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, had glorifed his Son. So, the "I AM WHO I AM" is the Father.

The Father is not the Son. You all know that. So, the "I AM WHO I AM" is not the Son.

 

[101G]

John 8:58 does not point to the deity of Christ. I will show you why in three arguments.

1. The passage is not about the deity of Christ, but about the preeminence of the Word of Christ, against any arrogant claims based on lineage.
2. Throughout this passage Jesus insists over and over that He is a person sent by God... not God!
3. The "I am" of this passage has nothing to do with the "I am who I am" of Exodus, which is a Name of the Father of Jesus, and not of Jesus, as attested by Peter in Acts 3:13.

GINOLJC, to all.
may 101G ask you a question concerning the Lord Jesus deity. "Is this the same one person in both scriptures below".
1. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

2. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

is this the same one person in the scriptures above who MADE ALL THINGS? yes or no.

101G.

 

[synergy]

No.
It is precisely because it is an association of minds that a church or a marriage are not personal.
It is precisely because they are not personal entities that why every man and woman needs to repent from their own bad choices, and will be rewarded according to their own deeds.

If you still don't understand why a church, a marriage, Coca Cola Company or the United Nations are not personal entities, but abstractions that refer to collections of personal entities, I am afraid I am not smart enough to explain this clearly to you.
The Holy Spirit, though, will let us know what is better for our spiritual growth, and God will be merciful with my weakness and yours.

I hope most of our readers in this Forum will keep coming to the One and True God with contrite heart through Jesus Christ.

Churches can be of the same one mind and therefore personal. Paul proves that's possible by exhorting the Church to be that way. See 1 Cor 1:10.

10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Nobody said that Churches are Persons or Personal Entities. That's a Strawman on your part. I said Churches can be Personal.