The Trinity The Touchstone of Truth

[dwight92070]

My friend:

Exhibit A alone should not be used to support Jesus deity, for the reason I gave you:
We can't conclude that Moses is God based on the fact that the Law of Moses is the Law of God.

Let me give you another example:
Paul calls the Gospel of Christ "my gospel"
in the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ. (Romans 2:16)
So, if the gospel of Paul is the gospel of Christ... and if the gospel of Christ is the gospel of God... is Paul God?
Whose was the gospel preached to the Romans... Paul's? Christ's? God's?

You keep saying that Exhibit A should be accepted because there are OTHER verses who support the deity of Jesus.
OK, then proceed to those other verses.

As I said, your "reason" is a straw man. In order for your law of Moses point to be a valid comparison, there would have to be scores of verses that say and/or even imply that Moses is God, but there are NONE. So your "reason" is not a real reason at all.

In your 2nd paragraph, you do the same as your 1st. You simply repeat your same flawed reasoning. I already acknowledged that Paul does use the term "my gospel" and I explained that, but you simply ignored what I said, as if I had said nothing. "My gospel" simply means that that is the message that He preaches. It does NOT mean that He has his own gospel, which is about him. You used the term "the gospel of Paul", which I don't think you'll ever find in the New Testament - and rightly so, because it implies that there is a message about Paul himself that can bring salvation, which is false.

Exhibit A stands on its own merit. It does not require other verses to support it - although there are many. Obviously we will proceed to other verses that support the deity of Jesus.

 

[dwight92070]

Okay, moving on to 1 Tim.1:1-2. You point out that Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus in both of these verses. No question about that - I have always agreed that there is a distinction between the two, which agrees with the Trinity itself. But the Trinity goes further and says that each of the 3 persons is also, at the same time - God, which I also agree with. I know, according to human reasoning, that doesn't make sense, but God never promised us that we could fully understand His very Being.

But notice what Paul calls God in verse 1 - Savior. Wait a minute, I thought Jesus was our Savior. Well, Paul says that too. Look at 2 Timothy 1:10: " ... but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus. Paul calls Jesus our Savior over a dozen times in the New Testament. But He calls God our Savior over 10 times.

So, since you believe that Jesus and God are two different "persons", then you would have to conclude that there are TWO Saviors. But what does Is. 43:11 say? "I, even I, am the Lord, and there is no savior besides Me." Isaiah calls God "Savior" in 45:21, 49:26, 60:16 and 63:8. In Hosea 13:4, God says that there is no Savior besides Him.

Exhibit B - Paul calls both God and Jesus our Savior. Yet in Isaiah and Hosea, God tells us that He alone is our Savior. Therefore Jesus IS God.

Now let's look at 1 Tim.1:2. Paul says that grace, mercy and peace comes from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. I understand how God could give those blessings, not just to one person, but literally to millions of people at the same time. But please explain how it is possible for a man, Jesus, who has gone on to heaven, to give those things, not just to one person, but millions at the same time. A man cannot do that. Only God can do that.

Exhibit C - Only God can give millions of people grace, mercy and peace at the same time. And yet Paul tells us that the man Christ Jesus, can also do that same thing, even after He has gone to heaven. Therefore Jesus is God.

1 Timothy 2:5 You said that God cannot be a mediator with Himself. But we have already agreed that God, the Father and Jesus are distinct from each other. Therefore it is no problem for Christ Jesus to be a mediator between God and men.
You also point out that Paul calls Jesus a man. No argument there. He IS a man. It just so happens that He is also God.

Please explain to me how a baby whose mother is a woman, but whose Father is NOT a man, but is the Creator of all things, can be just a man. He IS a man, but He also IS God in the flesh.

 

[dwight92070]

I almost forgot. In #270, I point out that the New Testament tells us that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Jesus are the SAME Kingdom. In fact, the New Testament also refers to the gospel of Jesus as the gospel of the Kingdom.

Exhibit D - The New Testament is clear that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Jesus are the SAME Kingdom. See John 18:36-37 Therefore, Jesus is God.

Exhibit E - In Is. 43:15 and Is.44:6, the Lord says He is the King of Israel. Yet Jesus also claims to be the King of the Jews in Luke 23:3. Only God is the King of Israel. Therefore Jesus is God.

The New Testament is clear that not only is Jesus King of Israel, but He is King of kings and Lord of Lords. 1 Tim.6:15 Also the Lamb, who is Jesus, is called the Lord of lords and King of kings in Rev.17:14. He is also called King of Kings and Lord of Lords in Rev.19:16 and "The Word of God" (See John 1:1) in Rev.19:13. He is also called "the Ruler of the Kings of the earth" in Rev.1:5

More to come! I'm out of town today, so may not get back to this until tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As I said, your "reason" is a straw man.

I encourage you to study what a straw man fallacy is.
A strawman fallacy is when your opponent misrepresents your argument: your opponent presents as yours an argument that is not really yours, but a weaker or distorted version of it that is easier to refute.
In this case, you have with all transparency presented your argument, and I am respectfully refuting THAT argument, no other of my invention.

Your argument, if I understand it correctly, is this:
Since the Gospel is called "the Gospel of Christ" in some verses, and "the Gospel of God" in some other verses, then Christ is God.
If this is NOT your argument, or I am misrepresenting it, please let me know and I will correct my approach.

In order for your law of Moses point to be a valid comparison, there would have to be scores of verses that say and/or even imply that Moses is God, but there are NONE. So your "reason" is not a real reason at all.

The same applies to your argument.
You would need scores of verses that say that Christ is God.

I already acknowledged that Paul does use the term "my gospel" and I explained that, but you simply ignored what I said, as if I had said nothing. "My gospel" simply means that that is the message that He preaches.

Well, that's exactly the same thing I think about the gospel of Jesus.
The Gospel of Jesus is the Gospel Jesus preaches.

Exhibit A stands on its own merit.

It does not. It needs other verses, in the same way any claim about the deity of Moses or Paul would need other verses.
So I invite you to proceed examining the whole teaching of the New Testament.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Okay, moving on to 1 Tim.1:1-2. You point out that Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus in both of these verses. No question about that - I have always agreed that there is a distinction between the two, which agrees with the Trinity itself. But the Trinity goes further and says that each of the 3 persons is also, at the same time - God, which I also agree with.

Since the Bible present a distinction between God and Jesus, Jesus cannot be God.
If you have God on one side, whoever stands on the other side is not God.

If God sent Jesus to the world, it means God sent another being to the world. It makes no sense to say that God sent Himself.
If Jesus intercedes as advocate between man and God, it means Jesus is not God. God would not advocate before Himself.
And so on and so forth.

Whenever God and Jesus are presented as distinct persons, by definition Jesus can't be God.

I know, according to human reasoning, that doesn't make sense,

Certainly it doesn't make sense.

but God never promised us that we could fully understand His very Being.

Your Unitarian brothers and sisters do not claim to fully understand God.
God remains beyond the reach of any human reasoning, either if He is a Person, as I believe, or an Assembly of Three persons, as you seem to believe.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Exhibit B - Paul calls both God and Jesus our Savior. Yet in Isaiah and Hosea, God tells us that He alone is our Savior. Therefore Jesus IS God.

Jesus always taught that God had sent him to save. Everything he spoke or did what because His Father told him so.
Therefore, Jesus is Savior because He executes God's will and orders to save. That's the whole point of being a Messiah.
But salvation, forgiveness, grace, all ultimately come from God as a source.

A good example of how God's salvation operates through the Messiah is found in Ezechiel 34
God starts speaking against the bad shepherds of Israel, and states that He, himself, would come to Israel. But then, later on, he explains that he would do it through the Messiah. Please look:

YWHW SPEAKS AS SHEPHERD (extracts from first 22 verses)

Thus says the Lord God [YHWH]: I am against the shepherds. And I will require My flock from their hand and cause them to cease from feeding the flock. Nor shall the shepherds feed themselves anymore, for I will deliver My flock from their mouth so that they may not be meat for them.​

​

For thus says the Lord God [YHWH]: I, even I, will search for My sheep and seek them out... I will seek out My sheep and will deliver them out of all the places where they have been scattered... I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and bring them to their own land... I will feed them in a good pasture... I will feed My flock... I will seek that which was lost and bring back that which was driven away ... ​

​

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YWHW EXPLAINS HE WOULD SET UP THE MESSIAH A SHEPHERD (verses 23 and 24)

I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even My servant David. He shall feed them himself and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and My servant David shall be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.​

​

Please notice that the agent of God's salvation is called "his Servant". It makes no sense that God sets up Himself and is a Servant of Himself.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So, since you believe that Jesus and God are two different "persons", then you would have to conclude that there are TWO Saviors.

You have admitted that Jesus and God are distinct, as per your post below.
So, it does not matter if we are Unitarians or Trinitarians: these two distinct entities / beings / persons / however we may call them, are saviors, and we must provide an explanation.

Explanation 1: Jesus is God and that's why Jesus can be called savior.
Explanation 2: God saves through Jesus and that's why Jesus can be called savior.

Explanation 2 is aligned with what the Tanakh said about the Messiah: a savior sent by YHWH.
It is also aligned with John 3:16 and 1 John 4:9,10 in that God sent Jesus to save us.

To be true, explanation 1 would require from us to think that God taught in the Tanakh that the Messiah was going to be God, and that verses that say that God sent Jesus in reality mean that God sent himself.

Okay, moving on to 1 Tim.1:1-2. You point out that Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus in both of these verses. No question about that - I have always agreed that there is a distinction between the two, which agrees with the Trinity itself.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Exhibit B - Paul calls both God and Jesus our Savior.

Certainly. Paul gives the title "Savior" to both God and Jesus.
When it comes to give the title of "God", however, Paul gives the title only to one of them... and several times, to eliminate any doubt, he even mentions by name who receives the title "God". Yes, the Father of Jesus.

Yet in Isaiah and Hosea, God tells us that He alone is our Savior. Therefore Jesus IS God.

God alone is our savior because salvation cannot come from any other source.
Jesus was sent by God. God was the source of his words and works. So we can properly say Jesus was a savior.
False messiahs were not sent by God. God was not the source of his words and works. So we can properly say they were not saviors.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Exhibit C - Only God can give millions of people grace, mercy and peace at the same time. And yet Paul tells us that the man Christ Jesus, can also do that same thing, even after He has gone to heaven. Therefore Jesus is God.

God is the source of all that. Jesus is the instrument.

Jesus Himself explained that his teaching (his Gospel) was not really his. So, while I am addressing your Exhibit C, let me leave clear that Exhibit A is not supported. Let's read in John 7:16,17

Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If any man desires to do His will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory. But He who seeks the glory of Him who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​

We are saved by the grace of God, the Father of Jesus.
Jesus is an instrument, channel or vehicle of that grace. Whenever you find the term "the grace of Jesus Christ" this means the grace that flows to us through the ministry of Jesus Christ. That's why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:4

I thank my God always on your behalf for the grace of God which has been given to you through Jesus Christ.​

The opposite is not true: We will never find Paul saying that Jesus gave us his grace through God. Why is that?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Exhibit D - The New Testament is clear that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Jesus are the SAME Kingdom. See John 18:36-37 Therefore, Jesus is God.

Of course they are the same kingdom. The Messiah was supposed to establish the kingdom of YHWH, not a perishable, corrupt kingdom, the kind men make. Who was going to be crowned as King of Israel when the Messiah came? The Messiah, of course. It would be his kingdom, and God's kingdom.
So, again, God speaks through the Messiah, saves through the Messiah, and governs through the Messiah.

To leave things clear about Exhibit D, Paul explains who is who in this Kingdom in 1 Corinthians 15:

But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came by man, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward, those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end when He will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For He “has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says, “all things are put under Him,” it is revealed that He, who has put all things under Him, is the exception. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Isn't it clear that Christ delivers up the kingdom to God the Father?
Isn't it obvious that Paul is not calling Christ "God", but he is calling The Father "God"?
Isn't it clear that Christ subjects to God, but God does not subject to Christ?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Exhibit E - In Is. 43:15 and Is.44:6, the Lord says He is the King of Israel. Yet Jesus also claims to be the King of the Jews in Luke 23:3. Only God is the King of Israel. Therefore Jesus is God.

All Jews have always expected the Messiah to be a king, just as David was a king.
My argumentation is the same that for Exhibit D. Paul leaves clear in 1 Corinthians 15 who is who in the kingdom.

The New Testament is clear that not only is Jesus King of Israel, but He is King of kings and Lord of Lords.

The term "King of Kings" is a title given to emperors, because an emperor, by definition, ruled over kings. Empires were multinational entities.
In Ezra 7:12, the Persian emperor Artaxerxes is called "king of kings".
In Daniel 2:37, the Babylonian emperor Nebuchadnezzar is also called "king of kings".

At the time of the apostles, the Roman emperor was king of kings. So, to illustrate that Christ was superior to Cesar, Christ is called "King of Kings".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

1 Timothy 2:5 You said that God cannot be a mediator with Himself. But we have already agreed that God, the Father and Jesus are distinct from each other.

The Bible presents God as distinct from Jesus. We agree on that.
The Bible presents The Father as distinct from Jesus. We agree on that.
But the Bible NEVER presents God as distinct from the Father. Do you agree with me on that?

Please bring to our readers one single verse in which God is presented a distinct from the Father.

Therefore it is no problem for Christ Jesus to be a mediator between God and men.

Let's read again 1 Timothy 2:5

There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

When you read "one God" in this sentence, what is the first thing you visualized in your mind, my brother? You saw the Father, didn't you?
Well, your visualization was correct. It was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
However, the verse does not say "The Father". Does it?
Although the text says "God", you thought immediately in the Father. Please ask yourself why.

Christ could not mediate between men and an Assembly in which he is also part. That would make Him judge and advocate at the same time.
Christ can mediate between men and God precisely because He is not God.

 

[dwight92070]

By definition, the straw man fallacy avoids the opponent’s actual argument and instead argues against an inaccurate caricature of it.
You are providing an inaccurate caricature of "the gospel of Jesus", saying that it is basically equivalent to saying "the law of Moses".

There's no equivalency whatsoever. The gospel of Jesus is about Himself AND God - in it Jesus and other witnesses claim that He IS God.

On the contrary, the Law of Moses is NOT about Moses, nor does Moses make any claim to be God. He simply delivered God's laws to Israel.

I will provide even more verses that show that Jesus is God. All of my exhibits are in fact, scriptural evidence that Jesus is God. Just because you reject them does not mean that they are invalid or untrue. The truths that they present are obvious, but you don't believe the very scriptures that teach them.

Exhibit F - God is called "Lord" over 7,000 times in the Old Testament. Jesus is called "Lord" over 700 times in the New Testament. Isaiah 45:5 says "I am the Lord, and there is no other, ..." Ephesians 4:5 says, " ... there is ... one Lord ..." Therefore Jesus is God.

So Exhibits A through F are plain for all to see. Will we believe what God says or make up our own theology?

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho said: God alone is our savior because salvation cannot come from any other source.

[Dwight -Exactly, which is why all the New Testament writers call Jesus our Savior - because He IS God.]

 

[dwight92070]

God is the source of all that. Jesus is the instrument.

Jesus Himself explained that his teaching (his Gospel) was not really his. So, while I am addressing your Exhibit C, let me leave clear that Exhibit A is not supported. Let's read in John 7:16,17

Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If any man desires to do His will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory. But He who seeks the glory of Him who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​

We are saved by the grace of God, the Father of Jesus.
Jesus is an instrument, channel or vehicle of that grace. Whenever you find the term "the grace of Jesus Christ" this means the grace that flows to us through the ministry of Jesus Christ. That's why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:4

I thank my God always on your behalf for the grace of God which has been given to you through Jesus Christ.​

The opposite is not true: We will never find Paul saying that Jesus gave us his grace through God. Why is that?

After a man dies and goes to heaven, what communication does he have with people here on earth? NONE Can he speak with them? NO Can he give them anything? NO Can he hear their prayers? NO Can he answer their prayers? NO Can he see what's going on in their lives? NO

So if Jesus is a man ONLY, then He cannot impart ANYTHING to us from heaven. Not grace or peace or mercy. However, if He is the God/man, He can do all of that.

 

[dwight92070]

All Jews have always expected the Messiah to be a king, just as David was a king.
My argumentation is the same that for Exhibit D. Paul leaves clear in 1 Corinthians 15 who is who in the kingdom.



The term "King of Kings" is a title given to emperors, because an emperor, by definition, ruled over kings. Empires were multinational entities.
In Ezra 7:12, the Persian emperor Artaxerxes is called "king of kings".
In Daniel 2:37, the Babylonian emperor Nebuchadnezzar is also called "king of kings".

At the time of the apostles, the Roman emperor was king of kings. So, to illustrate that Christ was superior to Cesar, Christ is called "King of Kings".

Was Artaxerxes supernaturally conceived in his mother's womb by God, our Creator? How about Nebuchadnezzar, is that how he was born? What about the Roman emperors, the Caesars? Did God impregnate their mothers to give birth to them? ALL of these had EARTHLY kingdoms. Jesus' kingdom, however, is NOT of this realm. In fact, it appears that He will never rule on this earth - the NEW EARTH yes, but not this earth.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho said: But the Bible NEVER presents God as distinct from the Father. Do you agree with me on that?

Please bring to our readers one single verse in which God is presented as distinct from the Father.

How about two verses?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word (Jesus) was with God (the Father) (distinct), and the Word was God (Jesus is God).

So Jesus, who is God, was with God, the Father. Here we see a distinction between the Father and God. John 1:1

Hebrews 1:8-9 "But of the SON (Jesus), He (the Father) says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever... therefore God, your God has anointed you.
So God the Son is distinct from God the Father.

 

[synergy]

If you have God on one side, whoever stands on the other side is not God.

Let's test that out:

If you have a person who is human on one side, whoever stands on the other side is not human.

Test fails.

 

[Grace ambassador]

op: Trinity Touchstone of Truth
Q: Is The Lord Jesus Christ Almighty God?

We would need to resort to all other verses across the Bible

Precious friend, Great Idea! - which has already been accomplished!:

Over 160 Biblical [ last count was about 500 Passages! ] Reasons:

Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!​

Here are my top 13 reasons to get started toward 160+ - and, please
Be Very Richly Edified and Encouraged in God's Word Of Truth!:

JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God: ​

1) God Was Manifest In The Flesh! (1 Timothy 3:16 AV)

JESUS CHRIST Was Manifest In The Flesh! (John 1:14 AV)​

2) JESUS CHRIST Is EMMANUEL

“interpreted = God With us!" (Matthew 1:21-23 AV)​

3) The SON, JESUS CHRIST Is Called

God, By His Own Father! (Hebrews 1:8 AV)​

4) JESUS CHRIST Is Called

The Great God And Saviour! (Titus 2:13 AV)​

5) JESUS CHRIST Is Called

The Mighty God! (Isaiah 9:6 cp Jeremiah 32:18 AV)​

6) JESUS CHRIST Is Called

The True God And Eternal Life! (1 John 5:20 AV)​

7) JESUS CHRIST Is Over All, God,

Blessed For Ever. Amen! (Romans 9:5 AV)​

8) All the angels of God Worship Him!

(Hebrews 1:6 AV), therefore, It Is Impossible​

for JESUS CHRIST to be = “Michael the archangel!”​

Therefore, All The Evidence In The Pure And Holy Word Of God​

Plainly And Clearly Teaches All humble students That:​

​

JESUS CHRIST Is God Almighty! Amen?​

9) JESUS CHRIST was worshipped!

(Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9; Luke 24:52 AV)​

a) Not once did JESUS Say, "See thou do it not,"  as "an angel, NOT​

to be worshipped," spoke  in Revelation 19:10, And, 22:8-9 AV!​

​

b) Since Only The LORD God is to be worshipped! ​

(Exodus 34:14; Psalms 29:2, 45:11, 86:9, et al; ​

Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 22:9 AV): ​

​

c) Holy Scripture Clearly Teaches us JESUS CHRIST Is God! ​

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10) Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall

confess to God! (Romans 14:11; Isaiah 45:21-23 AV).​

​

The God "every tongue is confessing to,”​

Is The LORD JESUS CHRIST! (Philippians 2:11)​

​

11) JESUS CHRIST Is Called The Saviour!

(Luke 2:11; Acts 5:30-31, 13:23; Titus 1:4, 2:13)​

(2 Peter 1:1, 11, 2:20, 3:18, 1 John 4:14 AV)​

​

Only Jehovah God Alone Is The Saviour!​

(Isaiah 43:3, 11, 45:15, 21; Hosea 13:4; Luke 1:47)​

(1 Timothy 1:1, 2:3, 4:10; Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4; Jude 1:25 AV)​

​

Therefore, JESUS CHRIST Is God!​

12) JESUS CHRIST Forgave sins! (Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5)

Only God Can Forgive sins! (Mark 2:7 AV)​

Pure And Holy Scripture Teaches us (Titus 2:13 AV):​

​

JESUS CHRIST Is The Great God, The ​

Only Saviour Who Can Forgive sin!!​

​

If we Deny His Deity, how can He Forgive us our sins?​

​

After all, It is Only God's Own BLOOD (Acts 20:28 AV), ​

That Has Power To "Cleanse us From All sin!" Amen?​

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And, Finally, Who Is The Judge Of All?

13) God Almighty Is The Judge Of All! 

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things,​

and doest the same, that thou shalt escape The Judgment Of God?…​

​

...But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself Wrath​

against The Day Of Wrath and Revelation Of The Righteous Judgement Of God!​

(Romans 2:3, 5 AV)​

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...God The Judge of all!...God Will Judge!… (Hebrews 12:23, 13:4 AV)  ​

​

...Strong Is The LORD God Who Judges!... (Revelation 18:8 AV)​

​

JESUS CHRIST Is God, Because All The Verses In The Holy Bible, ​

That Talk About God Being The Judge, Must Refer To JESUS CHRIST, ​

Since He Alone Judges! The Father Judges no man! (John 5:22 AV)​

​

The Father Has Committed All JUDGMENT To His​

SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!! (John 5:22 AV)​

​

Why?:​

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"That All men should honour The SON, even as ​

 they honour The Father. He that honoureth not The SON ​

 honoureth not The Father Who Hath Sent HIM!" (John 5:23 AV)​

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The Final Judgment Has This Important Conclusion To This Eternal Matter!:​

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"And I saw a 'great white throne', and Him that sat on it, from Whose Face the earth​

and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead,​

small and great, stand before God [ JESUS CHRIST, The Righteous Judge! ];​

​

and the books [ link ] were opened: and another book was opened,​

which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things​

which were written in the books, according to their works..."​

(Revelation 20:11-15 AV)​

--------------------------

For the humble who have acknowledged This Truth, and are journeying toward:

God's 'Bema Seat' Judgment:​

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which​

The Lord, The Righteous Judge, Shall Give me at That Day [ link ], and​

not to me only, but unto all them also who love His Appearing."​

(2 Timothy 4:8 AV) . . . . . . . . . [ The Great God And Saviour Titus 2:13 AV ]​

Amen.

 

[dwight92070]

Pancho, please explain why, when all of creation was bowing down "to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb", (Jesus) - why is it that the Lamb Himself DID NOT also bow down to the Father? Revelation 5:13-14

If Jesus is part of creation, wouldn't He also bow down "to Him who sits on the throne"?

On the contrary, all of creation bows down to Jesus, giving Him equal praise, honor, glory and dominion that they ascribe to the Father.

Exhibit G - In Revelation 5:13-14, the Lamb, which is Jesus, does not bow down "to Him who sits on the throne", which is the Father. But all of creation, of which Jesus is NOT a part, bows down BOTH to the Father and to the SON. Therefore Jesus IS God.