The Trinity made easy

[Pancho Frijoles]

Matthew 28:18 is still there.

Not there. Here:
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth".

Here are also three verses from Jesus own's lips, explaining his authority.
Will you dodge them or comment on them?

• Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (John 8:28)
• “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. (John 8:54)
• For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. (John 12:49)

Jesus is the Annointed of God.
To be the Annointed of God, you first need God. It is the person with authority who anoints.

Jesus is the Son of God.
To be the Son of God, you first need God. It is the person who is the source of life who begets a son, and the person with authority who behaves as father of a son.

 

[Fred]

Not there. Here:
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth".

Here are also three verses from Jesus own's lips, explaining his authority.
Will you dodge them or comment on them?

• Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (John 8:28)
• “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. (John 8:54)
• For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. (John 12:49)

I have already addressed this.

What you refuse o believe is that Jesus has all authority in the universe.
Matthew 28:18 refutes your heresy.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have already addressed this.

You have not.
Explain to our readers how God needs to receive authority from someone else.

The non-biblical source you have brought, does not explain how Jesus "omnipotence" was intrinsic and not given.
Here it is, from your post

Those who believe the Lord Jesus is God can account for the fact that He was "given" all authority in that before His resurrection He simply refused to always employ His omnipotence.

Can you point out from your source, where the author explains how the "omnipotence" of Jesus was intrinsic to Him, and not given by The Father?

You can't, and your author can't , because the concept of "receiving" authority, or commands, is NOT COMPATIBLE with deity... unless...
unless... your source is a Greek polytheist that believes that Hermes can receive authority from Zeus to come to the earth to deliver a message, get Zeus authorization to operate miracles, and still be god.

I'm serious.
I respect polytheists that are consistent with their polytheism. I know they will also be saved by God's grace.

 

[Fred]

You have not.

Yes, I have.
See post 884.

Open your eyes.

 

[Fred]

“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

All authority -> 100%
Given to Me -> Jesus has it.
in heaven and earth --> the universe.

Jesus has all authority in the universe = Jesus is the Almighty

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes, I have.
See post 884.

Open your eyes.

I'm quoting from your post. It is here.
Please point out where the author explains that an authority or power that has been given by God, makes the recipient God:

The boldface below is mine.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. hh


I find it surprising that those who deny the Lord Jesus is God will sometimes refer to Matthew 28:18 and emphasize that Jesus was GIVEN His authority which they think proves Jesus is not God. Those who believe the Lord Jesus is God can account for the fact that He was "given" all authority in that before His resurrection He simply refused to always employ His omnipotence.

1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8...cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact. A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world. Mt. 28:18 (5:895, All, B. Reicke).


The Lord Jesus possesses (right now) universal authority which means He is omnipotent/Almighty.
1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): His omnipotence, in which Christ shares as kyrios (1 C. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Mt. 28:18), extends over the whole world, over heaven and earth (1:679, Earth, S. Sasse).
2. BDAG (3rd Edition): Of Jesus' total authority Mt 28:18 (exousia, page 353).
a. The Oxford English Dictionary: having full or absolute power or authority (Omnipotent, volume 10, page 790).

That Jesus has total (full) authority demonstrates that He is omnipotent (the Almighty).

 

[Fred]

I'm quoting from your post. It is here.
Please point out where the author explains that an authority or power that has been given by God, makes the recipient God:

See post 905.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Given to Me -> Jesus has it.

Wrong.
You are considering "have" like an intrinsic feature of Jesus. That is absurd, based on Jesus own words that you have refused to comment from the gospel of John.

You can "have" 1000 dollars, and the power to digest food, but such wealth and such physical capacity are not intrinsic to you. They were given to you.

Jesus manages power for God's glory. Even when we confess him and kneel before Jesus, we do it for the glory of the Father. Don't we?
The Father is the source and end of all power and authority. Not Jesus. Why? Because Only the Father is The Only and True God, as Jesus taught (John 17:1-3).

Obviously, to understand that you would need to listen to Jesus explanations in the gospel of John that I have quoted, and which you dodge.

 

[Fred]

Wrong.
You are considering "have" like an intrinsic feature of Jesus. That is absurd, based on Jesus own words that you have refused to comment from the gospel of John.

So according to your warped view Jesus doesn't have it.

Pitiful.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So according to your warped view Jesus doesn't have it.

Pitiful.

No more than the power and authority I have to breathe.
Now please comment on the three verses of the gospel of John.

 

[Fred]

No more than the power and authority I have to breathe.

Says a whole lot about the jesus you embrace. Terrible heresy.


My Jesus has all authority in the universe (Matthew 28:18).

 

[synergy]

Says a whole lot about the jesus you embrace. Terrible heresy.


My Jesus has all authority in the universe (Matthew 28:18).

Heretics like @Pancho Frijoles always degrade Jesus every chance they get. It's disgusting!

 

[Fred]

Heretics like @Pancho Frijoles always degrade Jesus every chance they get. It's disgusting!

It really is awful.

 

[360watt]

What happens is one verse gets targeted, outside the full weight of scripture.

So.. aside from Jesus being given all authority.. you have Him being called the Alpha and Omega in Revelation.

Aside from that..you have Jesus giving eternal life.


Aside from that you have Jesus having power over evil spirits.

Aside from that you have Jesus sending the Holy Spirit.

Aside from that you have Jesus forgiving sin itself..having power over sin itself.

Aside from that you have Him accepting worship.

So..whatever issue you have with the Trinity..the fact of Jesus being God is crystal clear in scripture.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What happens is one verse gets targeted, outside the full weight of scripture.

I agree. The full weight of Scripture implies analyzing all what Jesus said in regards to his authority.
For example, there is evidence that Jesus depended on the will of The Father to perform a miracle, or to accomplish a stage of his mission.
We have the three verses of the gospel of John.

So.. aside from Jesus being given all authority.. you have Him being called the Alpha and Omega in Revelation.

And we have since the very first chapter of the Book of Revelation the mentioning of The Father as the God of Jesus, and then the differentiation of the Lamb and the zone who sits on the throne, and the four times Jesus refers to Him as “My God”.

Aside from that..you have Jesus giving eternal life.

And the explanation given by Jesus that it is His Father the source of such life

Aside from that you have Jesus having power over evil spirits.

A power that disciples also had

Aside from that you have Jesus sending the Holy Spirit.

Aside from the verse in which it is the Father who sends the Holy Spirit, and the verses in which the apostles were the agents to confer the Holy Spirit upon lying of hands

Aside from that you have Jesus forgiving sin itself..having power over sin itself.

Aside from that you have the disciples receiving the power to forgive sins. That didn’t make them gods.

Aside from that you have Him accepting worship.

But never ever requesting it, and always accepting with the meaning of a gesture of honor, and for the glory of The Father.

So..whatever issue you have with the Trinity..the fact of Jesus being God is crystal clear in scripture.

What is clear in Scripture is that God is treated as a person with a single mind.
What is clear is that Scripture presents God and Jesus as two different persons.
What is clear is that whenever Scripture presents the terms “Father “ and “Jesus Christ” in the same sentence, and the title God is assigned to any of these two persons, it is assigned to the Father, and not to Jesus, 100% of the time.
What is clear is that the Bible teaches that The Father is The Only and True God, and Jesus’ God.

 

[360watt]

Jesus said there is no one greater than John the Baptist, and then put Himself above the disciples.

Jesus did say 'my God' to the Father.. but this is in a different relationship from mortal man to God. Plus, the way Jesus interrelated with the Father needs to be put in the context of how the Jews saw agency. The agent carried the same authority as the originator of the message the agent carried.

You are missing the interrelationship isn't one of immortal vs mortal, or superior to inferior.

But...this has already been addressed.

Enough to and fro about this from me.

Jesus is God and I have eternal life through belief on Him. John 5:24.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus did say 'my God' to the Father.. but this is in a different relationship from mortal man to God. Plus, the way Jesus interrelated with the Father needs to be put in the context of how the Jews saw agency.

Hi, 360watt

In regard to “My God”, the interesting thing is that Jesus Himself makes this relationship equivalent to the relationship between the apostles and God, and that’s why He calls them “my brothers”. I invite you to analyze Jesus words

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

There is no other way around: Jesus is saying is the Person who is our Father is also his Father, and such Father, who is Our God, is also his God. The equivalence is so real, that Jesus calls his disciples, in this context, in this relationship, “brothers”.

The agent carried the same authority as the originator of the message the agent carried.

The agent of God carries authority from God, and carries a message from God… But God Himself does not carry anything…He is the source of authority and the message.
God can’t be an agent of anyone else, or the Messenger of someone else, or the Servant of anyone else.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wrong.
You are considering "have" like an intrinsic feature of Jesus. That is absurd, based on Jesus own words that you have refused to comment from the gospel of John.

You can "have" 1000 dollars, and the power to digest food, but such wealth and such physical capacity are not intrinsic to you. They were given to you.

Jesus manages power for God's glory. Even when we confess him and kneel before Jesus, we do it for the glory of the Father. Don't we?
The Father is the source and end of all power and authority. Not Jesus. Why? Because Only the Father is The Only and True God, as Jesus taught (John 17:1-3).

Obviously, to understand that you would need to listen to Jesus explanations in the gospel of John that I have quoted, and which you dodge.

Where was Jesus at when the word "given" was used?

I've given my Son things in his life but I can assure you, it has always been his. What is mine is His. What is His is mine.

Like I've told you over and over again, you don't obviously know what it is to be a Father and to have a son.

You mess with Jesus and you're messing with the Father. That is what you can expect in the very near future. You are openly opposing the Son.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Hi, 360watt

In regard to “My God”, the interesting thing is that Jesus Himself makes this relationship equivalent to the relationship between the apostles and God, and that’s why He calls them “my brothers”. I invite you to analyze Jesus words

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

There is no other way around: Jesus is saying is the Person who is our Father is also his Father, and such Father, who is Our God, is also his God. The equivalence is so real, that Jesus calls his disciples, in this context, in this relationship, “brothers”.


The agent of God carries authority from God, and carries a message from God… But God Himself does not carry anything…He is the source of authority and the message.
God can’t be an agent of anyone else, or the Messenger of someone else, or the Servant of anyone else.

Funny. You have no authority and you're disparaging Jesus Christ.

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

Jesus is MASTER. You're nothing like Jesus. Nothing like him.

 

[civic]

That is not a fact. It is a belief, and a wrong one.
I am a strictly monotheist theist.
A theist believes God is personal (has a mind, a will)
A mono-theist believes only one person is God.
A poly-theist believes that several persons are God.

View attachment 1478

Here is where your definitions are wrong

1- monotheists believe there is One God
2- polytheists believe there is more than One God.