The Trinity made easy

[mikesw]

Hi Runningman

I think it would be interesting to know whether any respected Trinitarian theologian would support the idea that Jews believed in the Trinity at any time in their history. I suppose none of them would.
If that's the case, our Trinitarian friends should start by acknowledging that the Trinity was unknown by those who listened the preaching of Jesus Christ and his disciples.

It would be much more proper from our Trinitarian friends of the Forum to claim the Trinity to have been revealed by the Holy Spirit to the disciples of the disciples (what we could call the second generation of Christian leaders), at some point during the second century AD.

The Catholic Church would have no problem with accepting that, since it believes in progressive revelation to the Church.
The ones struggling are those who claim to uphold Sola Scriptura, without accepting that their theology has a post-biblical basis.

The general history of Israel had been rather dismal. Christ Jesus was sent to give those who follow him stability in their faith. So it would not have made sense to give fuller revelation of God to them. But they do have the record of the Angel of the Lord also being Yahweh.
Pancho Frijoles does not watch what I write but share this with him.
The Jewish writings show them contending about the way God and the Angel of the Lord both were Yahweh. The issue actually was resolved with recognition of the divinity of Christ. But for the Unitarian, these ideas cannot be discussed and the controversy of the Angel of the Lord just left a mystery. They just ascribe this to polytheism.

 

[civic]

Excellent points, especially this one.

Too bad it makes you a heretic according to civic.

I affirm He limited His use of His Divine Prerogatives.

Just reading through an old thread and seeing I missed your comment lol. Just clarifying my position on the Incarnation.

 

[civic]

His position does not devalue Jesus. It places him right where he's supposed to be - the Son of God. Trinitarians are the ones who elevated the man Jesus to be on par with the Supreme God of the universe. Jesus was 100% man. He was divine but that doesn't make him co-equal to God the Father.

The Father elevated the Son, the Son elevated Himself saying eternal life is found in Him and that He demands to be worshipped by His disciples and followers, and that the entire Bible is all about Him from cover to cover. The Apostles elevated Him as do the Angels and all creation in heaven.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

I affirm He limited His use of His Divine Prerogatives.

Just reading through an old thread and seeing I missed your comment lol. Just clarifying my position on the Incarnation.

In other words, choices. God makes choices. God limited his reaction to many things because of His Character. Such never changed in the Incarnation.

Those who want to see some "massive" change in the Incarnation are sadly usually looking to tarnish the Divinity of Christ.

 

[civic]

In other words, choices. God makes choices. God limited his reaction to many things because of His Character. Such never changed in the Incarnation.

Those who want to see some "massive" change in the Incarnation are sadly usually looking to tarnish the Divinity of Christ.

Amen !

 

[Peterlag]

You are correct about montheism, but not about idolatry.

Idolatry is not just about physical representations but any false attribution of God.

Even Scripture in both OT and NT says there are demons behind the physical statues.

I have a buddy who keeps telling me there's devils behind the concept of the trinity. For some reason I never see it that way. What am I missing?

 

[Peterlag]

52 Reasons why Jesus is not God...

1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

3.)The idea that "the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together make one God" is not found in Scripture.

4.) God is spirit, and Jesus said he was not a spirit even after his resurrection (Luke 24:39).

5.) Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.

6.) God was not born, but is eternal.

7.) Romans 5:19 says a man had to pay for the sins of mankind.

8.) The man Jesus is the mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5).

9.) Jesus called the Father "my God" both before and after his resurrection.

10.) Jesus said my Father is greater than I (John 14:28).

11.) It was God that made Jesus "Lord" (Acts 2:36).

12.) Jesus would have already been the Lord if he was God.

13.) In the future Jesus will be subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28).

14.) Jesus was "sanctified" by God. God does not need to be sanctified.

15.) There is only one who is good and that is God (Luke 18:19).

16.) God is greater than Christ (1 Corinthians 3:23).

17.) It was God who did miracles and wonders through Christ.

18.) Christ was given all authority. He would have already had all authority if he were God (Matthew 28:18).

19.) The phrase "Deity" never appears in the Bible, nor is Christ ever called "Deity."

20.) Ephesians 4:5 says there is one Lord.

21.) 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is one God.

22.) Jesus called the Father the only God (John 5:44).

23.) Christ made a distinction between speaking against him and the Holy Spirit.

24.) Christ said his doctrine was not his own (John 7:16).

25.) Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42).

26.) Jesus counted himself and his Father as two (John 8:17).

27.) The Bible always portrays God and Christ as two separate beings.

28.) The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is an "heir" of God (Romans 8:7).

29.) Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise.

30.) Jesus had limited knowledge (mark 13:32).

31.) God made Jesus perfect through suffering (Hebrews 2:10).

32.) Jesus received the holy spirit at his baptism. He would have already had it if he were God.

33.) Jesus was tempted. God cannot be tempted.

34.) Angels ministered and strengthened Jesus. God does not need to be strengthened.

35.) Jesus died. God cannot die.

36.) Jesus says we are his brothers. The Bible never says or even hints that we are brothers of God.

37.) We are told to do greater works than Jesus. Nobody can do greater works than God.

38.) Jesus would have already had "all authority" if he were God and would not need to be given “all authority” (Matthew 28:18).

39.) Jesus would have already had “a name above every name”if he were God and would not need to be given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).

40.) Jesus would have already had "glory" if he were God and would not need to be given "glory" (John 17:22, 24).

41.) Jesus would have already been "appointed" if he were God and would not need to be “appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

42.) Jesus was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).

43.) Jesus was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).

44.) Jesus was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected him (Acts 13:30).

45.) Jesus was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).

46.) Jesus was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).

47.) Jesus was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

48.) Jesus is called the "Son of God" more than 50 times. Not once is he called "God the Son."

49.) The apostles also taught Jesus was a man (Act 2:22).

50.) The Bible teaches God is the “head” of Christ (Corinthians 11:3).

51.) The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible.

52.) There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2132

52 Reasons why Jesus is not God...

1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

3.)The idea that "the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together make one God" is not found in Scripture.

4.) God is spirit, and Jesus said he was not a spirit even after his resurrection (Luke 24:39).

5.) Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.

6.) God was not born, but is eternal.

7.) Romans 5:19 says a man had to pay for the sins of mankind.

8.) The man Jesus is the mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5).

9.) Jesus called the Father "my God" both before and after his resurrection.

10.) Jesus said my Father is greater than I (John 14:28).

11.) It was God that made Jesus "Lord" (Acts 2:36).

12.) Jesus would have already been the Lord if he was God.

13.) In the future Jesus will be subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28).

14.) Jesus was "sanctified" by God. God does not need to be sanctified.

15.) There is only one who is good and that is God (Luke 18:19).

16.) God is greater than Christ (1 Corinthians 3:23).

17.) It was God who did miracles and wonders through Christ.

18.) Christ was given all authority. He would have already had all authority if he were God (Matthew 28:18).

19.) The phrase "Deity" never appears in the Bible, nor is Christ ever called "Deity."

20.) Ephesians 4:5 says there is one Lord.

21.) 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is one God.

22.) Jesus called the Father the only God (John 5:44).

23.) Christ made a distinction between speaking against him and the Holy Spirit.

24.) Christ said his doctrine was not his own (John 7:16).

25.) Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42).

26.) Jesus counted himself and his Father as two (John 8:17).

27.) The Bible always portrays God and Christ as two separate beings.

28.) The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is an "heir" of God (Romans 8:7).

29.) Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise.

30.) Jesus had limited knowledge (mark 13:32).

31.) God made Jesus perfect through suffering (Hebrews 2:10).

32.) Jesus received the holy spirit at his baptism. He would have already had it if he were God.

33.) Jesus was tempted. God cannot be tempted.

34.) Angels ministered and strengthened Jesus. God does not need to be strengthened.

35.) Jesus died. God cannot die.

36.) Jesus says we are his brothers. The Bible never says or even hints that we are brothers of God.

37.) We are told to do greater works than Jesus. Nobody can do greater works than God.

38.) Jesus would have already had "all authority" if he were God and would not need to be given “all authority” (Matthew 28:18).

39.) Jesus would have already had “a name above every name”if he were God and would not need to be given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).

40.) Jesus would have already had "glory" if he were God and would not need to be given "glory" (John 17:22, 24).

41.) Jesus would have already been "appointed" if he were God and would not need to be “appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

42.) Jesus was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).

43.) Jesus was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).

44.) Jesus was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected him (Acts 13:30).

45.) Jesus was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).

46.) Jesus was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).

47.) Jesus was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

48.) Jesus is called the "Son of God" more than 50 times. Not once is he called "God the Son."

49.) The apostles also taught Jesus was a man (Act 2:22).

50.) The Bible teaches God is the “head” of Christ (Corinthians 11:3).

51.) The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible.

52.) There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

A bot has taken over Peterlag's account. Crazy what AI bots will do these days.

 

[civic]

A bot has taken over Peterlag's account. Crazy what AI bots will do these days.

To many people depend on AI instead of doing their own personal Bible studies. It’s the lazy way and they are lost when it comes to in person dialogue

 

[mikesw]

To many people depend on AI instead of doing their own personal Bible studies. It’s the lazy way and they are lost when it comes to in person dialogue

Of course I'm just giving him the response due to the list he gave. I think he studied scripture in a fashion to find alternatives to the divinity of Christ. He has also mentioned at least one mentor he has and thus can get lists from that guy. I have thrown in the concept of AI chat bots, of AI generating responses and even website content, even as broad content on the web. But I am not truly accusing this of being AI generated or posted.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Of course I'm just giving him the response due to the list he gave. I think he studied scripture in a fashion to find alternatives to the divinity of Christ. He has also mentioned at least one mentor he has and thus can get lists from that guy. I have thrown in the concept of AI chat bots, of AI generating responses and even website content, even as broad content on the web. But I am not truly accusing this of being AI generated or posted.

He can confirm or deny. It certainly looks like AI is involved to me.

I know he doesn't really know the Scriptures. You can tell that he's a novice pretending he's a teacher. "Write a book" doesn't qualify as expertise.

If he is mentoring someone..... God help that person.

 

[mikesw]

He can confirm or deny. It certainly looks like AI is involved to me.

It was interesting one guy's identification of indicators of AI generated comments on his youtube videos. It tends to use long dashes where people don't. The wording sometimes can be technical like "I appreciate your upload of a 4k video." Normal people would just say "I like the quality of this video."

I know he doesn't really know the Scriptures. You can tell that he's a novice pretending he's a teacher. "Write a book" doesn't qualify as expertise.

If he is mentoring someone..... God help that person.

I don't really know his bible knowledge. I kind of assumed it without much evidence, just that maybe he had "answers" to certain passages raised.

Edited content: The idea about AI was posted after some people liked my comment about Peterlag's possible bible knowledge.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[Fred]

View attachment 2135

Sophomoric arguments...at best.

 

[Peterlag]

Sophomoric arguments...at best.

All 5 points destroyed your satanic 3 God doctrine, with one God always kneeling to the other God, and the third God is never prayed to or worshiped or even seen in heaven. My post murdered that damnable abomination... may it rest in peace.

 

[Fred]

All 5 points destroyed your satanic 3 God doctrine

Your 5 points are trash.

 

[360watt]

All 5 points destroyed your satanic 3 God doctrine, with one God always kneeling to the other God, and the third God is never prayed to or worshiped or even seen in heaven. My post murdered that damnable abomination... may it rest in peace.

No matter what people reply to you with.. you just go back to statements that have been disproved for eons of time.

For eg..Jesus not being worshipped.

That is a statement completely foreign to scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

Your 5 points are trash.

I notice that, as a rule, intelligent and informed input in this forum - and in the trinity debate in general - comes from the unitarian camp. It's almost like low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

 

[mikesw]

I notice that, as a rule, intelligent and informed input in this forum - and in the trinity debate in general - comes from the unitarian camp. It's almost like low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

Too bad you concept of intelligence is all backwards. That is a really stupid statement but I do not assume you or runningman are stupid. That is not the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem may be your hearts. If you could make sufficient arguments, then people might listen and believe what you are sharing.

 

[Fred]

I notice that,

The Lord refers to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10.