I had imagined the discussion on the Trinity would have been about nuances of meaning or maybe modalism or the way divinity and humanness came together. I did not thing the discussion would involve a questioning of Christ's divinity.
The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
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Of course there are many ways to approach the topic of the Trinity. My personal preferential way is to prove Christ's Divinity. Once that's done then the cultist is faced with either agreeing to a Bi-unity or to go one more step towards a Tri-unity (Trinity).
civic
Well-known member
It’s not so much the Trinity under attack as the real issue is Jesus divinity.
Correct. They are 2 sides of the same coin.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I had a guy once tell me he saw the trinity in Genesis 1 and then he quoted "let us make man" and from that he said God had to be talking to another God. God could have been talking to a whole bunch of spirit like beings such as angels or angel like beings or even the Cherubims.It is an all-too-common assumption that the concept of the Trinity is a purely Christian idea. But the idea of a God being a three-in-one unity actually has its roots in foundational Judaism and in the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the concept of the Holy Spirit, the Ruach Ha-kodesh, originates in the Hebrew Scriptures—as early as Genesis 1.
Is the Trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures? - Jews for Jesus
Though, it’s often held to be heretical in modern Judaism, the idea of a God being three-in-one actually has its roots in foundational Judaism.jewsforjesus.org
Did you read the article or do you think that we enjoy your silly life experiences?
This odd idea popped into my head. It could be persons of the Triune God being revealed from the very beginning. But God should have put this all in a special chapter or book.
Peterlag
Well-known member
If it's a biblical concept that is a big deal like the trinity then it would have been taught in the Bible. The fact that it is not tells us there's no such thing as a trinity.
civic
Well-known member
NO as God said:
let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.
man was created in the image and likeness of God,not angels.
God is Plural in Genesis 1.
. Plural pronouns used of God proving YHWH is Plural in Persons:
Click here for detailed study of plural references to God
A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.
- "Our" Gen 1:26
- "Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
- "We" Isa 6:8
- "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
- "Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
- "Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7
- "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8
A. Jesus Christ is our co-creator who is the exact image of God.
- "see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " 2 Corinthians 4:4
- "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. " Colossians 1:15
- "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, " Hebrews 1:3
hope this helps !!!
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Wrong. The concept of the Trinity is all over the New Testament. Actually the main doctrine of the Trinity is that Jesus is God, which again, is all over the New Testament - that is, if you're willing to acknowledge. it.
civic
Well-known member
Yes here are just a few of dozens of examples regarding God is Plural.
There is only One Lord- 1 Corinthians 8:6
There is only One Sovereign and Lord Jude 1:4
Kurios( Lord ) is the Greek word in the LXX for YHWH.
Jesus is called God in Acts
We can see that there is only One Savior who is Lord from both the Old and New Testaments. Now there is a particular poster who claims the book of Acts never refers to Jesus as God. We will see that the word Lord in many places is used in the book of Acts as an equivalent to God.
Isa 43:11
11"I, even I, am the Lord,(YHWH)
And there is no savior besides Me.
Isa 45:21-23
Is it not I, the Lord? (YHWH)
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Below we see in fact it is the name of Jesus alone by which men must be saved. There is no other name which can save a man.
Acts 4:12
12"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Here we see Stephen pray to Jesus as he was being stoned which would be forbidden if He were not God. We also see that Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit when he was praying to Jesus.
Acts 7:59-60
59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Jesus is Lord(YHWH) of all with no exceptions
Acts 10:36
"The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)
Acts 14:3
3 Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.
We see below that it was the name of Jesus whom they proclaimed as Lord. It was Jesus who was preached to the gentiles.
Acts 15:15-18
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
Acts 15:23-26
"The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The phrase the word of God is synonymous with the word of the Lord(Jesus,YHWH)
Acts 15:35
But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord.
Again it is the Lord Jesus who was prayed to and who answers prayers.
Acts 16:14-15
14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. 15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.
Below we see to believe in the Lord(Jesus) is the same as believing in God. In fact we see that they first believed in the Lord Jesus and later referred to that as believing in God therefore calling the Lord Jesus God !!
Acts 16:31-34
31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
So we can see that Jesus was preached in the book of Acts as the only One who can save men from their sins. We see He is indeed the Savior. We see He was prayed to under the power of the Holy Spirit and that Jesus answered prayer. They also called the word of God the word of the Lord making Jesus equal with God. We also see that those who believed in the Lord Jesus actually believed in God, therefor calling Jesus God.
We also see the Peter in fact calls Jesus YHWH when he refers to Joel below. When Peter calls Jesus Lord it is the same as calling Him YHWH,
Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Acts 2:21
1 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Acts 2:34-36
4 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ — this Jesus whom you crucified."
Acts 4:10-12
0 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 "He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
It is the same Lord YHWH whom Stephen prayed to as he was dying for his faith in the Lord Jesus who saved him. To deny this is to turn a blind eye to the scriptures. We know from scripture that only God can save(Is 43:11) but we see in Acts that the Lord Jesus saved men from their sin. Had God not become man He could not of died for our sins. Had Jesus not been God He could not save us from sin.
Acts 7:59-60
59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Jesus,Savior,Lord and God were interchangeable names for the one true God in Acts and the Epistles.
And of course we have YHWH who will be pierced, and He will pour out His Spirit. We know from the NT it was Jesus who would send the Helper,Comforter, Holy Spirit to His disciples and who was pierced.
Zech 12:10-11
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Acts 2:36-40
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ — this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Acts 3:17-20
"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
hope this helps !!!
You have to tell God he made a mistake for not adding that chapter into the bible. We already covered that issue. You really need to figure out some substance to argue with. It is apparent you are at a loss to make your view coherent. For the ability to deny the divinity of Christ, too many verses have to be removed from scripture. Maybe you can revise the bible for that goal. You have given your argument a decent try. Your ideas just are not sufficient to undo the Trinity nature of our God.
Maybe I speak this as a reflection of the trinitarian concept and of Christ's divinity, but I sense that Jesus could not be a mere man when he was here on earth (and of course he was sent from heaven and descended from there) since being something of the ordinary would not suffice. If Christ were just a man, God would not really be distinguishing Christ Jesus from other religious figures (if I may use that term). Christianity is differentiated on many levels from all other religions with its start of God among us and then taking the reviling of the people was killed and rose again. At all stages Christ was not just another man on earth. He was not just exalted somehow only after the resurrection. All phases were Christ in his glory that he has always had.
When we talk about the Uncreated Word of God Person and Christ, we are talking about the same exact Person. The only difference between the Uncreated Word of God and Christ is Christ's human nature that he took on when he was born. Thus, Christ is God, always was God, always will be God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I challenged every one of your verses until you said I was only commenting on verses. So I posted whole paragraphs that you ignored because you could not find anything wrong with them. Then you tell me my data was just not good enough when the truth is there's still no such thing as a trinity.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.
civic
Well-known member
Plural and singular nouns applied to God: "God, Lord"
| Singular | Plural | |
| God: El, Elohim | "El" Gen. 33:20, Num 23:19 | Elohim: (used 4000 times) |
| Lord: Adonai | Examples? (Almost always plural) | Adonai: Gen 18:30; Ex 34:23; Deut 10:17; Joshua 3:11,13; Ps 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Mal 1:6 |
- The two most frequently used words (God and Lord) that refer to God in the Old Testament are almost always plural!
- Singular nouns are quite rarely used: El:
a. God (el - singular) is not a man, that He should lie (Numbers 23:19)
b. Then he erected there an altar and called it El-Elohe-Israel [God, the God of Israel]. (Gen. 33:20) - We don't know of any examples of "Lord" applied to God in the singular.
- "And if I am a master [plural adonai], where is My respect? says the Lord of hosts" Mal 1:6
| Singular pronouns | Plural pronouns | |
| I, we | "I" Isa 6:8 | "We" Isa 6:8 |
| Myself, Us | "Myself" Gen 9:9 | "Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8 |
| Me, Our | "Me" Zech 12:10 | "Our" Gen 1:26 |
- "Then God [
- "Then Yahweh God [
- "Come, let Us [
- "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [
IV. Plural and singular verbs applied to God: "create, make, wander, revealed, judges"
| Singular | Plural | |
| Creator: Bara | Isaiah 40:28 | Ecclesiastes 12:1 |
| Maker: Asah | Genesis 1:7 | Gen 1:26; Ps 149:2; Job 35:10; Isa 54:5 |
| Husband: Baal | ? | Isa 54:5 |
| wander | ? | Genesis 20:13 |
| revealed | ? | Genesis 35:7 |
| judges | ? | Psalm 58:11 |
- Creator: Bara
a. God is called Creator (singular of bara) Isaiah 40:28
b. "Remember also your Creator [
- Maker: Asah
a. "Let Us [
b. "Let Israel be glad in his Maker [plural form of asah]" Psalm 149:2
c. "Where is God [plural, elohim] my Maker [plural form of asah]" Job 35:10
d. "For your husband [plural, baal] is your Maker [plural form of asah]" Isaiah 54:5
- "God [
- "He built an altar there, and called the place El-bethel, because there God [
- "Surely there is a God [
V. Plural adjectives that describe God: "holy"
- "You will not be able to serve Yahweh, for He is a holy [
- "And the knowledge of the Holy [
- "Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy [
VI. Single verses that contain both singular and plural references to the same being.
| text | who | Singular refers to class of being | Plural refers to individuals within that class |
| Isaiah 6:8 | God | Whom shall I send (Divine spokesman representing all) | for Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) |
| Gen 1:27 | Man | "created him" (mankind) | "created them" (male and female) |
| Mark 5:9 | Demon | "My name is Legion" (demonic spokesman representing all) | "we are many" (A full Roman legion had 6,826 men. They were cast into 2000 swine. Perhaps multiple demons can inhabit both man and pig.) |
Conclusion:
A. The evidence that "Let US make man in OUR image". (Gen 1:26) refers to the Trinity is irrefutable.
- The unanimous interpretation of all the apostolic fathers from 100 - 300 AD was that the US of Gen 1:26 referred to the trinity. They all viewed the Father talking to the Son and the Holy Spirit. They specifically rejected the notion of God talking to the angels. Of course they never discuss the concept of plural of majesty, for it did not exist at this time.
- The Unitarians and Christadelphians are wrong because they say Us refers to God and the Angels. But man is not created in the image of angels, but of God. Jesus is not included in their view of US.
- The Jehovah’s Witnesses do include Jesus and the Father in the US of Gen 1:26, but make Jesus the created arch-angel Michael. But Heb 1:5 proves Jesus cannot be, nor ever has been an angel. Further, in their self contradictory doctrine, they have Jesus the creature, as our co-creator (Jn 1:3). But this violates Rom 1:25: "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator". This passage teaches that if Jesus is the creator, as the Bible says he is, then he cannot be a creature. Jesus cannot be creator and creature at the same time!
C. The plural nouns and pro-nouns applied to God, like WE, US, OUR, Elohim, Adonai are powerful evidence of the Trinity hidden in the Old Testament, to be discovered after the coming of Christ. The almost exclusive use of the plural elohim for God and adonai for Lord, make a strong case that any honest seeker could see. This extensive pattern is irrefutable. By Steve Rudd
hope this helps !!!
There are dozens and dozens of verses in the Old Testament that clearly record the Pre-Incarnate Christ, which proves He is God. That coupled with NT verses prove conclusively that Jesus is God. A true scholar would know that. Stop reading those cult books or hanging around charlatan scholars that are blind to Biblical facts.
I hope you are not referring to Hunting and Buzzard in their book Die Lehre Von Der Dreieinigkeit Gottes. Their book gets a rather bad review here:
https://search.worldcat.org/title/1026806832
The review begins with:
