The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Let's stay on track here gentleman. This thread is about the Christian concept of the trinity. If you want to discuss other Non-Christian religious beliefs we have made those available to you in a different section of the forum.
charismaticlady
Active member
Of course! I don't live my life looking back over my shoulder. I'm and open book. And beside, I already told them I was bringing over a friend.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Jesus declared “All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me” (Matther 28:18). In contrast, the Father never says that His power has been given.
The asymmetry of power and authority is obvious:
- Jesus obeyed our Father. Our Father didn’t obey Jesus.
- Jesus submitted to our Father. Our Father didn’t submit Himself to Jesus.
- Our Father vivified Jesus. Jesus never vivified our Father.
- Our Father exalted Jesus. Jesus did’nt exalt our Father.
- Jesus is the Way to our Father. Our Father, though, is not the Way to Jesus.
- Jesus is an intercessor before our Father. Our Father is not an intercessor before Jesus.
- Our Father calls Jesus his Servant. Jesus calls our Father his God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Can I add to this...
The Old Testament referred to the Messiah as the servant of God, and we see this in Isaiah 52-53, which speaks of the suffering and death of the Messiah when referring to the Messiah as God’s “servant.” They called King David God’s “servant” when the disciples prayed to God in Acts 4:25 and later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (Acts 4:30)CSB; ESV; NAB; NASB; NET; NIV; NJB). They equated the Messiah as a servant of God just like David was rather than referring to Jesus as if he was God himself. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:
- Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
- Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
- Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
- Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
- Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
- Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
- “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
- “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear brother
Although I am not a Christian, the arguments I am presenting here are the same arguments that Unitarian Christians have presented for centuries. I’m using exclusively the Bible in this thread for Scriptural support, without resorting to writings not accepted by my Christian brothers as authoritative.
However, if you consider any of my posts inappropriate for this thread, please let me know and I will immediately follow your advice,
Peterlag
Well-known member
The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100% man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect”if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.
For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.
Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth.The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitariansare trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.
For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.
Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth.The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitariansare trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.
Maybe you will eventually have something to question Christ's divinity, but no so far. Certainly the Trinitarian discussions will try to understand Christ's divinity with his humanity. It is the attempt to understand what scriptures say while trying to figure out the exact way Christ's incarnation is possible. The understanding suffers from the limitations of humans to understand the divine but people will do as best as possible.
I have not seen anything yet convincing to deny the divinity of Christ. That can be quite a hurdle to overcome since it is something recognized even by Paul. I do share that if someone has a better concept of Christ's divinity in the Godhead, then we should follow the better concept.
Your previous post was attempting to show how we ourselves as believers are given the same authority or brought up to the same status as Christ by God the Father. I see you have abandoned that idea when it comes to what Jesus did on the Cross and with His Resurrection. So it looks like we have some form of an understanding here. That's good if you agree.
Now you've shifted to Jesus' relationship with God the Father. You have to understand that one of Jesus' prime purposes on Earth was to be an Exemplar for us. I see how you can be totally enthralled and absorbed by that view and miss out on the fact that Jesus never ever deprived Himself of His Divinity - nor could He. In fact, the Person of Jesus is the same Word of God Person Who has always existed alongside God the Father, even before creation. Please read Rev 19:11-16 about the Word of God Person and tell me what you think about Him.
You're doing just fine. What I'm concerned about Is the thread getting off track. Specifically discussing other world religions rather than the Trinity. As I mentioned in my previous post we do you have a category for that.
Peterlag
Well-known member
There is no such thing as a trinity and Paul never spoke about any such concept. Most of the folks on this form have dug their heels deep into a false religion. When I told them there's no teaching anywhere in the Bible on a trinity is when they posted verses scattered all over the Bible, but no teaching on it. When I called them out on it they switched it to attack me personally. They said I did not respond in the right way or that it was gorilla warfare or a straw man attempt. Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a“mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.
Here is an excellent word by word analysis of John 1:1 by Mr. R.C. Sproul. Education dissolves ignorance.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I listened to the video for more than 7 minutes and he starts off with the same John 1:1 that everyone else starts out with that does not say Jesus is God. John 1 starts out with talking about the logos. Not Jesus. He also in this 7 minute video that I heard mentions something about God's doctrine being too hard to understand. For me the Bible is simple. So simple that a child could understand it. The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
The verses you quoted are correct. Also in the Bible is John 1 that declares that the Logos, who was God, took on flesh as Jesus. Do you agree?
Peterlag
Well-known member
I do not agree and I don't see a clear teaching on a trinity where there's a whole chapter talking about it clearly. Jesus was the Word of God in person because he was the Son of God. There's nothing else there.
The phrase "the Word was God" is not in John 1:1? What Bible version are you using?
(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I call it guerilla warfare when people are just going to a single verse here or there and try to make that there big claim against perhaps the deity of Christ. You did come in with scant remarks or questions. You are now responding with some longer posts. You are right about the false religion stuff, like the Frijoles guy. I don't see a reasonable claim against the Trinity yet. You sort of have to rebuild the arguments from the fourth century and promote the grand debate again. You should know the various topics the trinitarian concept covers. Your approach is the most severe by rejecting the testimony of the deity of Christ. At least the modalists still recognized the deity of Christ. It probably can help for other readers to keep that part of your view in mind. It probably should be a separate discussion for that very issue, but fewer threads seem to exist for that one.
You are not the only one denying the deity of Christ. Even James D. G. Dunn has been accepted despite rejecting the deity of Christ. Seminaries would probably be more cautious in their selection of professors.
The weaknesses of rejecting the deity of Christ are many. Verses and passages that are sufficiently clear have to be explained away. The rejection of Christ by the Pharisees in their claims of Christ blaspheming. The early church's worship of Christ has to be disregarded. The two powers of heaven concept within Judaism is another thing to be rejected. The logical basis for justification through Christ's death has to be addressed, most significantly saying it was not just the martyrdom of another mere man taking a stand against those in power. Also, the debates on the nature of Christ involved various parties who held the deity of Christ but in different manners.
Then Peterlag's anachronistic claim that the recognition of the deity of Christ is a Roman Catholic claim (if I understand his use of "Catholic" ) is not useful to Peterlag's claims, but he has redeemed some sense of knowledge about Trinitarian doctrine and, as such, is not ignorant on the topic.
Then Peterlag's anachronistic claim that the recognition of the deity of Christ is a Roman Catholic claim (if I understand his use of "Catholic" ) is not useful to Peterlag's claims, but he has redeemed some sense of knowledge about Trinitarian doctrine and, as such, is not ignorant on the topic.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I said there's no trinity taught in the Bible and some came forth with a verse here and a verse there. I responded with those verses saying they are not teachings but just a twisted verse here taken out of context and another verse somewhere else. Then guys like you come along saying I'm only attacking verses. Well, that's what they are putting in front of me that I'm responding to. Nobody on the planet can give you a teaching on how the trinity is false because there's no such think as a trinity.
Two questions:
- Do you believe that Jesus is the Word in the flesh? (John 1:14)
- Do you believe the Word was/is God? (John 1:1)
