The Trinity made easy

[Peterlag]

Two questions:

1. Do you believe that Jesus is the Word in the flesh? (John 1:14)
2. Do you believe the Word was/is God? (John 1:1)

The Word is not a living being. Words are not flesh. Words do not have a literal pre-existence as a "spirit-writing" that somehow was in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[synergy]

The Word is not a living being.

I backed up my sentences with Bible verses. You backed your sentences with nothing. As such, the rest of your sentenses have been filed away where they belong.

 

[civic]

The Word is not a living being. Words are not flesh. Words do not have a literal pre-existence as a "spirit-writing" that somehow was in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

If the word is not a living being then neither is God a living being in John 1:1. Since the Word was with God and the Word was God.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

[civic]

Pros in John 1:1

NT:4314
89.112 NT:4314† ‎pros: a marker of association, often with the implication of interrelationships - 'with, before.' ‎ei)rh/nhn e&xomen pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'we have peace with God' Rom 5:1; ‎kai\ o( lo/go$ h@n pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'the Word was with God' John 1:1; ‎parrhsi/an e&xomen pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'we have confidence before God' 1 John 3:21.

Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies- Louw and Nida Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament

The Word is also seen has having eternally coexisted with a specific person called God (Greek, ton theon-the God, with the definite article implying that John has a specific person in mind). The term pros implies that not only is there a distinction between the Word and God, but that the Word is also personal. The Word is not just an impersonal attribute existing in the mind of God, but is a distinct person who has coexisted with God from eternity:

"John's use of the preposition pros 'with' is significant. It implies that the Father and the Son had an intimate as well as eternal relationship. Lenski explains:

The preposition pros, as distinct from heos, para,and sun, is of the greatest importance... The idea is that of presence and communion with a strong note of reciprocity. The Logos, then, is not an attribute inferring in God, or a power emanating from him, but a person in the presence of God and turned in loving, inseparable communion toward God and God turned equally toward him. He was another and yet not other than God.

The above coincides perfectly with John 17:5 where we read Jesus saying He was with ( para ) in relationship together, alongside the Father sharing the same Glory that is Gods alone before the Creation.

Strong's Concordance
para: from beside, by the side of, by, beside
Original Word: παρά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: para
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ah')
Definition: from beside, by the side of, by, beside
Usage: gen: from; dat: beside, in the presence of; acc: alongside of.

Thayers Greek Lexicon
para- with the genitive; and as in Greek prose writings always with the genitive of a person, to denote that a thing proceeds from. the side or the vicinity of one, or from one's sphere of power, or from one's wealth or store, Latina, ab; German von ... her, von neben; Frenchde chez; (English from beside, from);

b. with, i. e. in one's house; in one's town; in one's society: ξενίζεσθαι (which see), Acts 10:6; Acts 21:16; μένειν, of guests or lodgers, John 1:39 (); ; Acts 9:43; Acts 18:3, 20 (R G); f; ἐπιμένειν, Acts 28:14 L T Tr WH; καταλύειν, Luke 19:7(Demosthenes, de corona § 82 (cf. Buttmann, 339 (292))); ἀριστᾶν, Luke 11:37; ἀπολείπειν τί, 2 Timothy 4:13; παρά τῷ Θεῷ, dwelling with God, John 8:38; equivalent to in heaven, John 17:5; μισθόν ἔχειν, to have a reward laid up with God in heaven, Matthew 6:1; εὑρεῖν χάριν (there where God is, i. e. God's favor (cf. Winer's Grammar, 365 (343))), Luke 1:30; a person is also said to have χάρις παρά one with whom he is acceptable, Luke 2:52; τοῦτο χάρις παρά Θεῷ, this is acceptable with God, pleasing to him, 1 Peter 2:20 (for בְּעֵינֵי, Exodus 33:12, 16; Numbers 11:15); παρά Θεῷ, in fellowship with God (of those who have embraced the Christian religion and turned to God from whom they had before been estranged), 1 Corinthians 7:24; παρά κυρίῳ (in heaven), before the Lord as judge, 2 Peter 2:11 (G L omit and Tr WH brackets the phrase); παῥ ὑμῖν, in your city, in your church, Colossians 4:16; with a dative plural equivalent to among, Matthew 22:25; Matthew 28:15; Revelation 2:13; παῥ ἑαυτῷ, at his home, 1 Corinthians 16:2.

hope this helps !!!

 

[mikesw]

I said there's no trinity taught in the Bible and some came forth with a verse here and a verse there. I responded with those verses saying they are not teachings but just a twisted verse here taken out of context and another verse somewhere else. Then guys like you come along saying I'm only attacking verses. Well, that's what they are putting in front of me that I'm responding to. Nobody on the planet can give you a teaching on how the trinity is false because there's no such think as a trinity.

you have to convince God of that he does not exist as he is. Maybe then there are reasons you respond on single verses. Even this last one is not very substantial, which is part of the problem I notice. Anyhow, the details I listed earlier are part of those that have to be addressed in an alternative theory.

 

[mikesw]

Pros in John 1:1

NT:4314
89.112 NT:4314† ‎pros: a marker of association, often with the implication of interrelationships - 'with, before.' ‎ei)rh/nhn e&xomen pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'we have peace with God' Rom 5:1; ‎kai\ o( lo/go$ h@n pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'the Word was with God' John 1:1; ‎parrhsi/an e&xomen pro\$ to\n qeo/n ‎'we have confidence before God' 1 John 3:21.

Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies- Louw and Nida Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament

The Word is also seen has having eternally coexisted with a specific person called God (Greek, ton theon-the God, with the definite article implying that John has a specific person in mind). The term pros implies that not only is there a distinction between the Word and God, but that the Word is also personal. The Word is not just an impersonal attribute existing in the mind of God, but is a distinct person who has coexisted with God from eternity:

"John's use of the preposition pros 'with' is significant. It implies that the Father and the Son had an intimate as well as eternal relationship. Lenski explains:

The preposition pros, as distinct from heos, para,and sun, is of the greatest importance... The idea is that of presence and communion with a strong note of reciprocity. The Logos, then, is not an attribute inferring in God, or a power emanating from him, but a person in the presence of God and turned in loving, inseparable communion toward God and God turned equally toward him. He was another and yet not other than God.

The above coincides perfectly with John 17:5 where we read Jesus saying He was with ( para ) in relationship together, alongside the Father sharing the same Glory that is Gods alone before the Creation.

Strong's Concordance
para: from beside, by the side of, by, beside
Original Word: παρά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: para
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ah')
Definition: from beside, by the side of, by, beside
Usage: gen: from; dat: beside, in the presence of; acc: alongside of.

Thayers Greek Lexicon
para- with the genitive; and as in Greek prose writings always with the genitive of a person, to denote that a thing proceeds from. the side or the vicinity of one, or from one's sphere of power, or from one's wealth or store, Latina, ab; German von ... her, von neben; Frenchde chez; (English from beside, from);

b. with, i. e. in one's house; in one's town; in one's society: ξενίζεσθαι (which see), Acts 10:6; Acts 21:16; μένειν, of guests or lodgers, John 1:39 (); ; Acts 9:43; Acts 18:3, 20 (R G); f; ἐπιμένειν, Acts 28:14 L T Tr WH; καταλύειν, Luke 19:7(Demosthenes, de corona § 82 (cf. Buttmann, 339 (292))); ἀριστᾶν, Luke 11:37; ἀπολείπειν τί, 2 Timothy 4:13; παρά τῷ Θεῷ, dwelling with God, John 8:38; equivalent to in heaven, John 17:5; μισθόν ἔχειν, to have a reward laid up with God in heaven, Matthew 6:1; εὑρεῖν χάριν (there where God is, i. e. God's favor (cf. Winer's Grammar, 365 (343))), Luke 1:30; a person is also said to have χάρις παρά one with whom he is acceptable, Luke 2:52; τοῦτο χάρις παρά Θεῷ, this is acceptable with God, pleasing to him, 1 Peter 2:20 (for בְּעֵינֵי, Exodus 33:12, 16; Numbers 11:15); παρά Θεῷ, in fellowship with God (of those who have embraced the Christian religion and turned to God from whom they had before been estranged), 1 Corinthians 7:24; παρά κυρίῳ (in heaven), before the Lord as judge, 2 Peter 2:11 (G L omit and Tr WH brackets the phrase); παῥ ὑμῖν, in your city, in your church, Colossians 4:16; with a dative plural equivalent to among, Matthew 22:25; Matthew 28:15; Revelation 2:13; παῥ ἑαυτῷ, at his home, 1 Corinthians 16:2.

hope this helps !!!

That sort of helps. Can you try to remove some clutter -- details that maybe could be removed -- like phonetic spelling or confusing stuff like ‎ei)rh/nhn? Maybe remove 2/3rds of this so that it is easier for the common reader? A different way would be breaking up the Thayers content with headings like "mainly this" and "more confirmation of the same point..."

 

[civic]

That sort of helps. Can you try to remove some clutter -- details that maybe could be removed -- like phonetic spelling or confusing stuff like ‎ei)rh/nhn? Maybe remove 2/3rds of this so that it is easier for the common reader? A different way would be breaking up the Thayers content with headings like "mainly this" and "more confirmation of the same point..."

The main point is the word implies relationships. This proves the Logos/ Word must be Personal in the same way Theos/ God is personal / relational

 

[synergy]

The main point is the word implies relationships. This proves the Logos/ Word must be Personal in the same way Theos/ God is personal / relational

I always thought that the word "with" was a weak translation of the Greek word pros in John 1:1. A much better translation is "face to face" since pros comes from prosopo which means face in Greek. So the Word was face to face to God. The relational/personal implications/aspects of that, as you pointed out earlier, can now be clearly visualized and understood.

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (pros) God, and the Word was God.

 

[mikesw]

The main point is the word implies relationships. This proves the Logos/ Word must be Personal in the same way Theos/ God is personal / relational

Sure. I saw that. As a footnote, the quoted text has a little mix up.
This phrase "παρά τῷ Θεῷ, dwelling with God, John 8:38" is not quite right.
The Greek is actually παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς" (unless there is a variant)

 

[Peterlag]

you have to convince God of that he does not exist as he is. Maybe then there are reasons you respond on single verses. Even this last one is not very substantial, which is part of the problem I notice. Anyhow, the details I listed earlier are part of those that have to be addressed in an alternative theory.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

 

[Peterlag]

If the word is not a living being then neither is God a living being in John 1:1. Since the Word was with God and the Word was God.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

That's like saying if my words are not a living being then neither am I living being.

 

[mikesw]

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

You should have been there to tell Peter and Paul how they preach. It also was not a teaching mode -- a bible study, as it were. You have provided more of the guerilla warfare. Thanks for demonstrating that again. Note further that the gospel does not have to say "God came down to earth and you need to follow him." The gospel can identify Jesus' humanness to achieve the message about repentance."

You would need to do a good sampling of passages and do a thorough exegetical analysis on the passages that show Christ's divinity such that you form a sensible argument against the wording.

 

[Peterlag]

I backed up my sentences with Bible verses. You backed your sentences with nothing. As such, the rest of your sentenses have been filed away where they belong.

I backed up my data with nothing? I have all kinds of Scripture all over this site. Here's two more that I already posted here... There are a number of other New Testament verses that state Jesus was a man and we can see them in places like Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[civic]

That's like saying if my words are not a living being then neither am I living being.

No it’s not because it’s the Word who( not it ) that was with ( relationship , face to face) God and was God whom the world was made. All things were made by Him and through Him and without Him nothing was made.

God creates, an it doesn’t create . An it cannot be called God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Peterlag]

No it’s not because it’s the Word who( not it ) that was with ( relationship , face to face) God and was God whom the world was made. All things were made by Him and through Him and without Him nothing was made.

God creates, an it doesn’t create . An it cannot be called God.

hope this helps !!!

“all things were created.” The Greek verb translated “created” is ktizō (#2936 κτίζω), and it means to create. But this verse is not referring to God creating the world in the beginning. It is referring to His creating the positions of authority that are needed to run the Church, which started on the Day of Pentecost. The Bible describes both the physical and spiritual realities that God created by the phrase, “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.”

Many people think that because Colossians 1:16 says, “For by him all things were created,” the verse is speaking of the original creation of the universe but that is not the case. When the word “all” (or “every” or “everything”) is used, it is often used in a limited sense. For example, when Absalom was holding a council against his father, David, 2 Samuel 17:14 says that “all the men of Israel” agreed on advice that was given. “All” the men of Israel were not there and did not all agree, but the verse uses “all” in its limited sense, meaning, “all” who were there, and that limited group all agreed. Another example is Jeremiah 26:8, which says that “all the people” seized Jeremiah to put him to death, but the context makes it very clear that “all the people” were not even present. Again, “all” is being used in a limited sense.

The Bible says that Christians “know all things” (1 John 2:20), but that does not mean we know everything there is to know. The point is that whenever we read the word “all,” we must determine whether it is being used in the wide sense of “all in the universe,” or in the narrow sense of “all in a certain context.” When Colossians 1:16 says “all things were created by him,” we know from both the context and the scope of Scripture that “all” is being used in a limited sense. The things that God created as per this verse are not rocks, trees, birds, and animals, but are “thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities,” and these are the authorities and positions that were needed to run the Church.

 

[civic]

“all things were created.” The Greek verb translated “created” is ktizō (#2936 κτίζω), and it means to create. But this verse is not referring to God creating the world in the beginning. It is referring to His creating the positions of authority that are needed to run the Church, which started on the Day of Pentecost. The Bible describes both the physical and spiritual realities that God created by the phrase, “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.”

Many people think that because Colossians 1:16 says, “For by him all things were created,” the verse is speaking of the original creation of the universe but that is not the case. When the word “all” (or “every” or “everything”) is used, it is often used in a limited sense. For example, when Absalom was holding a council against his father, David, 2 Samuel 17:14 says that “all the men of Israel” agreed on advice that was given. “All” the men of Israel were not there and did not all agree, but the verse uses “all” in its limited sense, meaning, “all” who were there, and that limited group all agreed. Another example is Jeremiah 26:8, which says that “all the people” seized Jeremiah to put him to death, but the context makes it very clear that “all the people” were not even present. Again, “all” is being used in a limited sense.

The Bible says that Christians “know all things” (1 John 2:20), but that does not mean we know everything there is to know. The point is that whenever we read the word “all,” we must determine whether it is being used in the wide sense of “all in the universe,” or in the narrow sense of “all in a certain context.” When Colossians 1:16 says “all things were created by him,” we know from both the context and the scope of Scripture that “all” is being used in a limited sense. The things that God created as per this verse are not rocks, trees, birds, and animals, but are “thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities,” and these are the authorities and positions that were needed to run the Church.

The church was not created in the beginning, the world was as per John 1, Gen 1, Col 1, Heb 1.

 

[mikesw]

I backed up my data with nothing? I have all kinds of Scripture all over this site. Here's two more that I already posted here... There are a number of other New Testament verses that state Jesus was a man and we can see them in places like Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

It is not helpful when you give only a partial counsel of scripture to make your point. That is why everything you say has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Paul's first letter begins with:
Gal 1:1 (ESV) Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers who are with me,

In the whole Galatians letter, Paul has not spoken of Jesus as a man. It seems further that Paul was either uncertain or cautious about referring to Christ Jesus as a man. We even see in a couple verses that Paul roughly denies Jesus as being a man in the sense of being the source of Paul's gospel. This certainly does not represent Paul's whole perspective about Jesus but merely the way Paul saw fit in this letter.

 

[mikesw]

Here's a video debate the deity of Christ and Hebrews.

 

[Peterlag]

It is not helpful when you give only a partial counsel of scripture to make your point. That is why everything you say has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Paul's first letter begins with:
Gal 1:1 (ESV) Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers who are with me,

In the whole Galatians letter, Paul has not spoken of Jesus as a man. It seems further that Paul was either uncertain or cautious about referring to Christ Jesus as a man. We even see in a couple verses that Paul roughly denies Jesus as being a man in the sense of being the source of Paul's gospel. This certainly does not represent Paul's whole perspective about Jesus but merely the way Paul saw fit in this letter.

I only give a partial counsel? All I get out of most of you folks is the same one verse... John 1:1.

 

[Peterlag]

The church was not created in the beginning, the world was as per John 1, Gen 1, Col 1, Heb 1.

Colossians tells you right in the verse they are thrones, dominions, principalities and powers. These are things the Christ will need to govern in the new heaven and the new earth. The all things in Colossians are not planets, suns, and oceans.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: