That'll work, plus I try to keep a good eye on things. I don't step in until they start getting out of hand. I hope you enjoy your time here.
The Trinity made easy
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
As an expert on the matter, you should be able to figure out the abbreviated form used by synergy
Peterlag
Well-known member
As an expert I don't see a spirit trinity from John 3:8
Clifford
Active member
The Trinity has always been easy for me. I've never had a hard time with it. I can understand why some people don't believe in the Trinity and that's their choice. I believed it the first time it was taught to me.
To me the New Testament contains clear statements that put the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit together on the same level.
Matthew 28:19: “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
2 Corinthians 13:14: “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”
1 Peter 1:2: “Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.”
Like I said to me these passages demonstrate a unity between the three persons of the Trinity, suggesting that they are not separate entities but rather distinct aspects of one God.
If you can't go for that no problem that's fine with me.
To me the New Testament contains clear statements that put the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit together on the same level.
Matthew 28:19: “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
2 Corinthians 13:14: “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”
1 Peter 1:2: “Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.”
Like I said to me these passages demonstrate a unity between the three persons of the Trinity, suggesting that they are not separate entities but rather distinct aspects of one God.
If you can't go for that no problem that's fine with me.
Absolutely! Every well thought out comments, like yours, are always welcome. We welcome all challenges to the Christian Trinitarian faith that is supported by the Greek New Testament.
The Holy Spirit is so distinct that He is called a separate Witness (Acts 5:32). Let that thought sink in. As if that wasn't enough to prove that He is a separate Person, have a look at all the personal traits that the Holy Spirit possesses as summarized by @civic in the following link:
Verse 13 radiates the Trinity. As God is Trinitarian then worshipping God is worshipping all three Divine Persons.
The Word of God, Jesus, being called "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (Rev 19:16), being called "My Lord and My God" by Thomas (John 20:28), and Jesus declaring himself as the Great "I Am!" of the OT (John 8:58) is more than ample reason to worship Jesus Christ as God.
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John 3:8 is making an analogy between the wind and Spirit. I'm sure you don't think John is just the weatherman making a meteorological statement.
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Therefore, the Spirit directs Himself just like the wind does. A distinct Personal Trait.
civic
Well-known member
How about these scriptures ?
One God, 3 Persons- The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all each called God
All called God
The Father- Psalm 89:26, 1Corinthians 8:6, Galalatians 1:1, Colossians 1:3
The Son- 1 Timothy 1:16-17,John 20:28,Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20
The Holy Spirit- Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25, cf Isaiah 6:8
All Creator
The Father- Isaiah 44:24, 1 Corinthians 8:6
The Son - Colossians 1:16; John 1:3
The Holy Spirit- Job 33:4, Psalms 104:30, Genesis 1:2
All Raised Jesus
The Father- 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
The Son- John 2:19-21
The Holy Spirit- Romans 8:11
All Eternal
The Father- Psalm 93:2
The Son- Jesus Isaiah 9:6
The Holy Spirit- Hebrews 9:14
All Omniscient
The Father- Psalm 147:5
The Son -John 2:24-25
The Holy Spirit- Isaiah 40:13-14
All Omnipresent
The Father- Jeremiah 23:24
The Son - Matthew 28:18:20
The Holy Spirit- Psalm 139:7-10
All Omnipotent
The Father- Revelation 4:8
The Son- Matthew 28:18, Revelation 5:13
The Holy Spirit- Romans 15:19
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Continued :
The Trinity in Acton on behalf of the saints
Romans 8
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saintsaccording to the will of God.
Hebrews 7
The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,the man Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
And when God intercedes on our behalf rest assured it will come to pass !
Luke 22:32
but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail
Ephesians 1:3-14
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
1-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Father in 1:3-6
2-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Son in 1:7-12
3-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Holy Spirit in 1:13-14
1-Salvation is Assigned by the Father
2-Salvation is Achieved through the Son
3-Salvation is Active from the Holy Spirit
Hence once again we see the Trinity in Action in the life of the believer!
Salvation is administered and assigned by the Father, accomplished and achieved through the Son and applied and activated by the Holy Spirit. We see the Trinity in action in the Redemption of the believer.
The Apostles in their writings reveal the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believers life. They are distinct Persons within the One God.
John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convictthe world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Fatherhas are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Matthew 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is mybeloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Below we see the One Name singular and the Plurality of Persons that one is to be baptized in as a disciple .
Matt 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "
Now below Paul will lay out our triune God below in these passages.
Rom 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellowheirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rom 8:26-36
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 14:17-18
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1 Cor 2:10-16
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
hope this helps !!!
The Trinity in Acton on behalf of the saints
Romans 8
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saintsaccording to the will of God.
Hebrews 7
The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,the man Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
And when God intercedes on our behalf rest assured it will come to pass !
Luke 22:32
but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail
Ephesians 1:3-14
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
1-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Father in 1:3-6
2-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Son in 1:7-12
3-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Holy Spirit in 1:13-14
1-Salvation is Assigned by the Father
2-Salvation is Achieved through the Son
3-Salvation is Active from the Holy Spirit
Hence once again we see the Trinity in Action in the life of the believer!
Salvation is administered and assigned by the Father, accomplished and achieved through the Son and applied and activated by the Holy Spirit. We see the Trinity in action in the Redemption of the believer.
The Apostles in their writings reveal the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believers life. They are distinct Persons within the One God.
John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convictthe world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Fatherhas are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Matthew 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is mybeloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Below we see the One Name singular and the Plurality of Persons that one is to be baptized in as a disciple .
Matt 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "
Now below Paul will lay out our triune God below in these passages.
Rom 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellowheirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rom 8:26-36
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 14:17-18
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1 Cor 2:10-16
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
hope this helps !!!
If I'm permitted to discuss your Baháʼí faith, I'd like to ask one concise questions about it:
Do you believe that only God has the power to save us from our sins?
If you said yes then the following logically follows from the New Testament:Since the Bible explicitly does declare that Jesus saves (Matt 1:21) therefore Jesus is God.
If instead of deductive reasoning you want a direct explicit statement from Jesus that He is God then look no further than John 8:58, which I mentioned in my previous comment to you.
Here is a Section devoted to discussing the Baháʼí faith.
Thanks. If this discussion goes anywhere, it might be a great idea to move this discussion there.
Peterlag
Well-known member
You cannot see the wind and you cannot see spirit. That does not make the wind God or the spirit God.John 3:8 is making an analogy between the wind and Spirit. I'm sure you don't think John is just the weatherman making a meteorological statement.
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Therefore, the Spirit directs Himself just like the wind does. A distinct Personal Trait.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I see 2 Corinthians 13:14 this way...
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [the spirit of Christ which is our new birth that is inside of us. God is not inside of us. His spirit is] be with you all. Amen.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi synergy
Were Thomas, Andreas, James or Peter God?
They had all authority to forgive sins. Didn’t they?
Well, in the same way that they had received authority from Jesus, Jesus had received authority from God.
Throughout the gospels, Jesus repeatedly claims that his power and authority is something given. Do you agree with me? We can go through the verses if needed.
God made Jesus King. Jesus made you king.
God made Jesus Priest. Jesus made you priest.
God made Jesus Judge. Jesus made you judge.
God made Jesus Shepherd. Jesus made you shepherd.
God sent Jesus as the Light of the World. Jesus sends you as the light of the world.
God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus raised you from the dead.
God made Jesus sit on His throne. Jesus made you sit in his throne.
Jews expected the Messiah to be a savior, because He would be God’s instrument to bring salvation. The Messiah would be a servant of God, not God. We can go through the prophets of the OT if needed.
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If our salvation needed only a decree from God then we are no better than Muslims. If fact they would be better. No, our salvation needed God to destroy Hades and Jesus did just that by His Resurrection. In fact, Jesus declared that He has power over life and death. An ordinary human being would be locked up in an asylum if he ever said that.
How about: Jesus has the power to lay down his life and take it up again (John 10:18)? Do you have that power?
Obadiah
Well-known member
I just took a look at it. Looks good.
Oh my. Did he mention he is of the Baha'i faith or did you deduce that? I think I have seen similarities of view of a person of that belief in another forum, but it has been many years since encountering that guy. It does help to know whether a person discussing the Trinity is doing so from common beliefs or from a totally outsider perspective. Really, for those who do not accept the deity of Christ, the argument should be a separate topic of discussion. One problem then is aligning someone who does not claim to be a Christian to be on the same side as one claiming to be a Christian while not recognizing the Trinity doctrine. But that might put them on the same side anyhow. Of course the difference that exists is the latter may just not comprehending the broader testimony of scriptures in his or her walk.
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He mentioned that he is of the Baha'i faith. That faith originated in Persia in the 19th century within an ocean of Muslims - so it has very strong ties to Islam.
So it would be easier for him just to say that if Christ is part of the Triune God, that would destroy his conception of this unity of religions and therefore cannot be true according his belief system. To him, if matching the summation of his religion, their god cannot be comprehended by humanity at any level. So this would be a trinitarian conception of God as simply unthinkable.
