civic
Well-known member
yes they make it as they go along winging it.
The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
That is what that poster states when he is unable to rebut what was posted
Johann
Well-known member
Poor exegesis.
Mat 19:4 But Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said in reply, Have you not read that HaBoreh (The Creator, G-d) bereshis (in the beginning) created them zachar (male) and nekevah (female) [BERESHIS 1:27, 5:2]?
Gen 1:26 And G-d said, Let Us make man in Our tzelem, after Our demut: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon ha'aretz (the earth).
Gen 1:27 So G-d created humankind in His own tzelem, in the tzelem Elohim (image of G-d) created He him; zachar (male) and nekevah (female) created He them.
Targum Neofiti:
Genesis 1:26:
“And the Memra of the Lord said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.’”
In the Genesis 1:26, we find God having a conversation about the creation of humankind.
Then God said, Let Us make humankind in our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth (Genesis 1:26).
To whom is God speaking? There are four popular answers to this question:
1.He is speaking to angels.
2.The Us is a plural of majesty.
3.The plural should be translated as a singular.
4. The Us refers to the members of the Trinity.
1.Angels
Some have taught that the reference to Us refers to God speaking to angels. This has been a very popular interpretation among the Jews. However this will not fit with the rest of Scripture. Nowhere do we find angels involved in any type of creation. According to the Bible, angels are created beings, not co-creators with God. The psalmist wrote:
Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts . . . Let them praise the Lord for He commanded and they were created (Psalm 148:2,5).
All His hosts is likely a reference to angels.
God's Image
Furthermore, humanity was not made in the image of angels but rather the image of God.
This is the list of the descendants of Adam. When God created humankind, He made them in the likeness of God. Male and female He created them, and He blessed them and named them Humankind when they were created (Genesis 5:1,2).
Creation belongs to the will of God alone. God did not make the decision with the counsel of angels.
2.Plural Of Majesty
Others have argued that the plural is only a plural of majesty that speaks of God's dignity and greatness. God is too majestic to be spoken of in the singular. They argue that the plural form of the noun for God, Elohim, can be explained somewhat in that way. The grammatical plural expresses something other than number. Hence we have, Let Us. This allows a single person to speak of himself in the plural. However, the plural of majesty does not, in any way, mean there is more than one God.
Only One God
When the Hebrew Old Testament was translated into Greek, the Greek word used to translate Elohim was Theos-a singular noun. This demonstrates the people understood Elohim to refer to only one God, not many.
3.Editorial We
It has been contended that the phrase let Us make refers to discourse where the subject, although singular speaks of himself in the plural. Though this use of the editorial we is popular in western literature, there is no evidence of it elsewhere in the Old Testament or in any of the literature in the ancient Near East.
4.Trinity
One of the most popular ways of viewing this verse is that we have communication within the members of the Trinity. Though not explicitly stated in this verse, the implicit nature of the Trinity is evident.
Elohim Plural
The Hebrew noun Elohim, used throughout chapter one, is plural in form, but it takes a singular verb. This speaks of plurality of persons within the nature of the one God. The pronoun Us also suggests in itself a plurality of persons.
Hebrew Grammar
It has been argued, however, that Us is required by Hebrew grammar since Elohim is a plural noun. Therefore we should not necessarily read the doctrine of the Trinity into this passage.
Other Uses
When this phrase is used elsewhere in Scripture it bolsters the idea of the Trinity. Genesis 3:22 has God stating that the man is like one of Us.
Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).
This cannot mean God was concerned that humanity had become like an angel or some other creature. Humankind was going to be like God if they sinned-knowing good from evil.
Tower Of Babel
In the incident at the Tower of Babel we have God also using the same phrase,
Come, let Us go down and confuse their language (Genesis 11:7).
The next verse tells us that it was the Lord, not angels, that scattered the people.
So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth (Genesis 11:8).
This provides further support of the Us referring to the members of the Trinity.
Not All Agree
There are some Christian interpreters who believe it is not correct to find a reference to the Trinity in this passage. They argue that the Trinity was not revealed until the New Testament and that the passage could be better interpreted as something else (such as the plural of majesty). While affirming the doctrine of the Trinity, they deny that we should read it into this passage. They do not believe that it would have been in the mind of the writer or would have been in the mind of his audience.
Foreshadowing
If Genesis 1:26 is speaking of the Trinity, then it is one of the most outstanding foreshadowings in the Old Testament. It records One Person of the Godhead addressing another. The Trinity doctrine is more fully developed in the remainder of Scripture although the Old Testament has foreshadowed it in various passages (Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 63:7, 9-10; Proverbs 30:4).
Summary
Although we are not specifically told who is talking to whom in the first chapter of Genesis, it seems in more keeping with the entire teaching of Scripture that the members of the Trinity are communicating with one another. Genesis 1 contains in embryonic form the doctrine of the Trinity that is alluded to in other parts of the Old Testament and fully developed in the New Testament.
sn The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.” See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate at the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.
Genesis 1
“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...
netbible.org
Any Hebrew Scholars here on this Forum as to who is the "Us?"
J.
101G
Well-known member
ERROR, US and OUR is he, himself. supportive scripture. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."
HIS "OWN ARM?", who, yes, WHO is his OWN ARM? answer, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?" (God is about to reveal his, his, his, own ARM), Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." (STOP, WHO IS THE "HE and the HIM HERE?) Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:7 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."
are we getting this, ..... as a LAMB? who is the Lamb.... yes the Lord JESUS, God's OWN, OWN, OWN ARM .... God himself in flesh, the ECHAD of himself in flesh.
THINK PEOPLE, this is the .... US and the OUR of Genesis 1:26 that was to come. yes God's OWN ARM, the HE/HIM, who is God in natural flesh.. HIS, HIS, HIS, OWN IMAGE My God this is too easy.
101G.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I never said anything against "He". You're overstating your case relative to an English pronoun. There are more words to be considered than just "HE".
Runningman
Well-known member
One of your questions was "Did they possess titles that belong to God alone?" Artaxerxes was called king of kings.
What is your other question you feel wasn't answered?
101G
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Plural, most definitely.not upset... (smile). ... lol, apparently some don't see the small pronouns.....
101G.
J.
101G
Well-known member
the question is how in plurality, that the question .... 101G say HIS plurality IS in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK.
101G.
Runningman
Well-known member
I think the idea they were conveying in Deuteronomy 32:39 was there is no other god aside from God. Yes there are other elohim in Scripture, but not in the same class and power as YHWH. Hence, in John 1:1 the Word is not the definite "The God" in the Greek.
Johann
Well-known member
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, נַֽעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה, וּבְכָל-הָאָרֶץ, וּבְכָל-הָרֶמֶשׂ, הָרֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ.
Who is this referring to? @TomL what sayeth your Logos Bible Software?
In ancient Hebrew literature, עָשָׂה often emphasizes a purposeful, crafted action. When applied to God's acts, it suggests intentionality and deliberate creativity. This is evident throughout the creation narrative in Genesis, where God makes and forms the universe.
The plural נַֽעֲשֶׂה has traditionally been interpreted by Jewish scholars as God speaking within a divine framework, perhaps involving heavenly hosts as witnesses or simply a way of expressing His own majesty. In contrast, some Christian interpretations see this as a conversation within the Godhead, particularly between the Father and the pre-incarnate Christ.
5. Theological Implications
נַֽעֲשֶׂה represents more than a grammatical form; it also raises questions of unity, agency, and authority in creation. In Christian theology, it can be seen as an early indicator of relationality within God, as understood in Trinitarian doctrine.
Jewish exegesis often treats this word as a rhetorical plural or as God’s royal or majestic mode of speech, not necessarily implying multiple divine persons but rather emphasizing God’s supreme authority and the gravity of the creative act.
In summary, נַֽעֲשֶׂה (na'aseh) is a plural, first-person form meaning "let us make," rooted in עָשָׂה (asah), and reflects a purposeful act of creation that has theological implications for both Jewish and Christian interpretations. It expresses both divine intentionality in creation and has been theologically explored for its implications of plurality within the divine conversation.
J.
Last edited:
101G
Well-known member
did God change?
was that not understood in Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."
101G.
101G
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
My question to you which you still do not answer
Were they more or less God than Jesus?
| make |
| 4 נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה |
| 1 עשׂה |
| ʿśh 1 |
| ʿśh 1 |
| VaI1-P |
The P notes it is plural
Johann
Well-known member
Right-so who did Elohim converse with in the "US?" @TomL?
Gen 1:26 and saidH559 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms way·yō·mer וַיֹּ֣אמֶר God,H430 N-mp ’ĕ·lō·hîm אֱלֹהִ֔ים let Us makeH6213 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf.h-1cp na·‘ă·śeh נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה manH120 N-ms ’ā·ḏām אָדָ֛ם in Our image,H6754 Prep-b+N-msc+1cp bə·ṣal·mê·nū בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ according to Our likeness;H1823
Thanks
J.
Last edited:
