The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Runningman]

wow. you expect all understanding of God to drop down on gold tablets. I am not really trying to convince you of anything since your heresy is so thoroughly ingrained that words will not correct your beliefs.

The Scriptures are the complete revelation. There is no further revelation to add. It's all already unpacked and explained, Scripture says so. Jesus revealed who God is and the only God he ever talked about is the Father. You really don't get this do you.

 

[mikesw]

The Scriptures are the complete revelation. There is no further revelation to add. It's all already unpacked and explained, Scripture says so. Jesus revealed who God is and the only God he every talked about is the Father. You really don't get this do you.

uh oh. You are left without explanation how Jesus has pre-existence and is identified as God. Your belief system is not closed and properly defined. It is left with contradiction. You are trying to explain your beliefs as interpretations of scriptures -- that is beyond what is in the bible.

 

[Runningman]

uh oh. You are left without explanation how Jesus has pre-existence and is identified as God. Your belief system is not closed and properly defined. It is left with contradiction. You are trying to explain your beliefs as interpretations of scriptures -- that is beyond what is in the bible.

So Jesus was slain before the world was created?

Revelation 13
8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.

 

[mikesw]

So Jesus was slain before the world was created?

Revelation 13
8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.

Not sure what you want to say here.

 

[Runningman]

Not sure what you want to say here.

Revelation 13:8 is a pre-existence verse right? It talks about what Jesus was doing before the foundation of the world clearly and explicitly. I am just asking if you believe he was crucified before the world was created.

 

[praise_yeshua]

praise_yeshua:

Come back at me with one more insulting comment, such as the above, and you will join mikesw on my "Ignore" list where I won't have to waste my precious time scrolling past the nonsense you're posting. I kid you not.


Troll ! !

You don't have to warn me. Just do it.

You know you answer to your elder. You can do something about this or not. Many JWs don't even know what their "society" teaches. It is never about organization with JWs. Never. Just one elder in complete control of "his people".

 

[Runningman]

You don't have to warn me. Just do it.

You know you answer to your elder. You can do something about this or not. Many JWs don't even know what their "society" teaches. It is never about organization with JWs. Never. Just one elder in complete control of "his people".

Don't worry, I will never block you even if you can get a little nasty sometimes, such as the times you suggested I am a racist and a murderer. I forgive you and still love you because the Father has given me the gift of love, which is the most precious gift of all. I also give this gift of love to you.

 

[Alter2Ego]

praise_yeshua:

Come back at me with one more insulting comment, such as the above, and you will join mikesw on my "Ignore" list where I won't have to waste my precious time scrolling past the nonsense you're posting. I kid you not.


Troll ! !

You don't have to warn me. Just do it.

You know you answer to your elder. You can do something about this or not. Many JWs don't even know what their "society" teaches. It is never about organization with JWs. Never. Just one elder in complete control of "his people".

praise_yeshua:

I actually took mikesw off my Ignore List after I decided to give him/her a chance to answer my four questions. But as for you, since you insist on repeating the same inaccuracy--after I told you not to do it; guess what? You are on PERMANENT ignore. Nothing else that you post on this website will be visible to me.

 

[Capbook]

Don't worry, I will never block you even if you can get a little nasty sometimes, such as the times you suggested I am a racist and a murderer. I forgive you and still love you because the Father has given me the gift of love, which is the most precious gift of all. I also give this gift of love to you.

Runningman, you possessed the forgiving Christian behavior. Thank you for that.
But the concept of Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the nature of being God.
Can be found in the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, you possessed the forgiving Christian behavior. Thank you for that.
But the concept of Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the nature of being God.
Can be found in the Bible.

I think even you know that the trinity is not explained, stated, or directly mentioned in the Bible. The way you all have created this "doctrine" is by inferring it through scattered verses. Do you think who God is a side doctrine or a core doctrine in the Bible? Why do you deny that the Father is alone the true God such as how Jesus explicitly stated in John 17:1-3 and Paul and others did too?

 

[Capbook]

I think even you know that the trinity is not explained, stated, or directly mentioned in the Bible. The way you all have created this "doctrine" is by inferring it through scattered verses. Do you think who God is a side doctrine or a core doctrine in the Bible? Why do you deny that the Father is alone the true God such as how Jesus explicitly stated in John 17:1-3 and Paul and others did too?

I may say, Unitarian also is not explained in the Bible.
And why did the Almighty God the Father called Jesus, God, Runningman? (Heb 1:8)

 

[Runningman]

I may say, Unitarian also is not explained in the Bible.
And why did the Almighty God the Father called Jesus, God, Runningman? (Heb 1:8)

Unitarianism is explicitly stated in John 17:1-3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6. It's supported by the whole body of Scripture about God being a singular person referred to as a He, Him, His, etc. I have told you guys this hundreds of times.

This doesn't refer to Jesus in the same sense that the Father is God. We have already talked about this. Can you explain away how this isn't referring to God in Psalm 45:6,7? Also, can you explain why God needed to be anointed above his companions? You think God had companions that he was below before? Can you also explain how this God isn't the Creator in Hebrews 1:9,10?

Hebrews 1
8But about the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

 

[Capbook]

Unitarianism is explicitly stated in John 17:1-3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6. It's supported by the whole body of Scripture about God being a singular person referred to as a He, Him, His, etc. I have told you guys this hundreds of times.

Can I read the word "Unitarian" from those quoted verses Runningman? Or is it just like you're asking us for the word "Trinity?"

This doesn't refer to Jesus in the same sense that the Father is God. We have already talked about this. Can you explain away how this isn't referring to God in Psalm 45:6,7? Also, can you explain why God needed to be anointed above his companions? You think God had companions that he was below before? Can you also explain how this God isn't the Creator in Hebrews 1:9,10

Classical Jews interpret the "God' in Psa 45:6,7 as referred to their Jewish Messiah Runningman. And I believe you know Who's the Messiah in Christianity.
Are we in the advantage to interpret the oracles of God which was entrusted to the Jews Runningman?

Rom 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Hebrews 1
8But about the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

Yes, clear enough that the Almighty God the Father, said to the Son, Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
And as to Jesus anointing, the passage shows striking interaction between the Persons of the Trinity. “God, Your God” speaks of the Father and His relational authority over the Second Person of the Trinity. The anointing has in mind the ministry and presence of the Holy Spirit,(oil) the Third Person of the Trinity.

 

[Runningman]

Can I read the word "Unitarian" from those quoted verses Runningman? Or is it just like you're asking us for the word "Trinity?"

Unitarian and Trinitarian are names of theologies. We give doctrines and theologies names in Christianity because there are so many different versions that just saying "Christian" isn't clear what one is really referring to anymore.

Classical Jews interpret the "God' in Psa 45:6,7 as referred to their Jewish Messiah Runningman. And I believe you know Who's the Messiah in Christianity.
Are we in the advantage to interpret the oracles of God which was entrusted to the Jews Runningman?

Rom 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Yes, clear enough that the Almighty God the Father, said to the Son, Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
And as to Jesus anointing, the passage shows striking interaction between the Persons of the Trinity. “God, Your God” speaks of the Father and His relational authority over the Second Person of the Trinity. The anointing has in mind the ministry and presence of the Holy Spirit,(oil) the Third Person of the Trinity.

No, Jews do not interpret Psalm 45 messianically. The traditional and longest standing view of who Psalm 45 is referring to is Solomon at his royal wedding. The part about Psalm 45:6,7 referring to Solomon as a god who was anointed above his companions by his God is not a reference to Solomon being God because that would be blasphemy. Elohim in Jewish theology can refer to humans who are grand like a king or judge, which perfectly describes who Solomon was.

Psalm 45 is not considered to be a messianic Psalm. Psalm 45:6,7 is transferred to Jesus, but the original context is about Solomon. It's no where remotely closely to a statement that assigns deity to Jesus anymore than it does to Solomon.

I would recommend finding some better arguments. You can't change that Psalm 45 is about Solomon. You can't just talk your away around that.

 

[Capbook]

No, Jews do not interpret Psalm 45 messianically. The traditional and longest standing view of who Psalm 45 is referring to is Solomon at his royal wedding. The part about Psalm 45:6,7 referring to Solomon as a god who was anointed above his companions by his God is not a reference to Solomon being God because that would be blasphemy. Elohim in Jewish theology can refer to humans who are grand like a king or judge, which perfectly describes who Solomon was.

Classical Jews do interpret Psalms 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah Runningman, see Wikipedia below.

According to classical Jewish sources, Psalm 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah. According to Metzudot, a classical Jewish commentary, the king mentioned in verse 2 is the Jewish Messiah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_45.

Psalm 45 is not considered to be a messianic Psalm. Psalm 45:6,7 is transferred to Jesus, but the original context is about Solomon. It's no where remotely closely to a statement that assigns deity to Jesus anymore than it does to Solomon.

I would recommend finding some better arguments. You can't change that Psalm 45 is about Solomon. You can't just talk your away around that.

If the one called "God" in that verses is king Solomon, do you believe that he is really God Runningman?

 

[Alter2Ego]

You know what, mikesw? I'm going to nip this in the bud starting now, because you are running from scriptural correction due to your love affair with Christendom's fairytale.

First of all, the Bible is my authority. We will soon see whether it is yours.

2 Timothy 3:16​

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"
Below are several scriptures followed by questions that address each of the scriptures as well as word definitions. Let's see if you're willing to be corrected by scripture starting now.
. . . . Answer those first four questions, and then we shall proceed.

oh my. You sure are getting pushy in your advocacy of heresy. You try to load the discussion without including the pre-existence of Jesus and the deity passages about Jesus in John 1. And who really cares if you fail to continue sharing your heresy here? You are asking people to play your little game while wishing that half of the Bible not be reviewed. You push questions that do not advocate your view and then get angry when that is pointed out.. . . .
The questions of alter_ego are intended to have us deny Christ so we can play this little word game with questions that actually affirm the deity of Christ. The simple observation is that if you cannot see the deity of Jesus becoming incarnate as shown especially in John 1:1-18, you are simply blind or worse. But you are not able to defend yourself against the recognition of that blindness.

If you came in with honest questions, we could continue the debate.

mikesw:

Snipping off the scriptures and/or definitions accompanying my questions (the context) demonstrates you are still dodging. I will repeat each of my four questions in separate posts and attach each of your four answers to the particular question. This will enable everyone reading this thread to see the extent to which you are willing to go in order for you to NOT be corrected by scripture.

 

[Alter2Ego]

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him." (John 1:18 -- Anderson's New Testament)

John 1 Anderson's New Testament

QUESTION #1 to mikesw: According to John 1:18, no human eye has ever seen God, except for the eyes of his begotten Son, Jesus Christ. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #1 to mikesw: According to John 1:18, no human eye has ever seen God, except for the eyes of his begotten Son, Jesus Christ
Answering to the text instead of your make-believe question
The text reads: No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

mikesw:

If you think that by quoting from a Trinitarian Bible (English Standard Version https://biblehub.com/esv/john/1.htm) where the words were deliberately mistranslated, that that is supposed to help you, you're mistaken. Even the notoriously Trinitarian King James Version got it right, as follows:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (1 John 1:18 -- King James Bible) https://biblehub.com/kjv/john/1.htm

But that's the least of your problems. The translators of English Standard Version failed at their attempt at making Jesus THE God even after they capitalized the word "god" as in "the only God, who is at the Father's side...." Here's why: Look at the words at the beginning of that verse of scripture from the English Standard Version. It says "No one has ever seen God..." So when the translators of English Standard Version followed "No one has ever seen God..." with "the only God, who is at the Father's side...," they inadvertently made it clear that no one has ever seen THE God and that the second "God, who is at the Father's side," is not THE God.

Let's see if you can grasp what I just told you in the paragraph directly above.


BTW: The answer to Question #1 is either TRUE or FALSE. You provide no answer; therefore, your answer is wrong. That's 25% wrong out of a possible 100%.

Let's proceed with Question #2 and see if you did any better. That will be in my very next post.

 

[Alter2Ego]

1 Timothy 6:13​

Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders . . . .

1 Timothy 6:16​

the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.

QUESTION #2 to mikesw: According to 1 Timothy 6:16, God alone has immortality and no man has seen or can see him. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 to mikesw: According to 1 Timothy 6:16, God alone has immortality and no man has seen or can see him.
Answering to the actual text:
The text reads: who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
Jesus

THis again shows from John 1:18 that the One who saw God was not mere human. Great point.

mikesw:

Do you even understand the definition of the word immortality? I gave it to you at Post 567 where I initially asked you Question #2.

Post in thread 'The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning'

Nov 17, 2025

mikesw:

If Jesus were still a god while on earth, humans would not have been able to kill him. What is it about that don't you get? Scripture says he became lower than angels while he was on earth.

Hebrews 2:7​

You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

Hebrews 2:8​

All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.

Hebrews...​

• Alter2Ego

My question #2 is based on what's found at 1 Timothy 6:16 where it says God alone has immortality.

An immortal person CANNOT die.


You got Question #2 wrong, because you were required to give a TRUE or FALSE answer. That's 50% wrong out of a possible 100%.

I will give you a chance to improve your score. Below is another question for you.

QUESTION #5 to mikesw: Jesus Christ died. TRUE or FALSE?


I will check your answers to Questions 3, 4, and 5 next time I log in.

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

Do you even understand the definition of the word immortality? I gave it to you at Post 567 where I initially asked you Question #2.

Post in thread 'The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning'

Nov 17, 2025

mikesw:

If Jesus were still a god while on earth, humans would not have been able to kill him. What is it about that don't you get? Scripture says he became lower than angels while he was on earth.

Hebrews 2:7​

You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

Hebrews 2:8​

All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.

Hebrews...​

• Alter2Ego

My question #2 is based on what's found at 1 Timothy 6:16 where it says God alone has immortality.

An immortal person CANNOT die.

I can understand your confusion. You trip up because you fail to recognize Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. His body died and he is in the resurrected state as Paul writes. This indeed is immortality as the King of kings. And he abides in the light
whom no one has ever seen or can see.
It is worded oddly so it is not particularly an unforgivable error that you make.

You got Question #2 wrong, because you were required to give a TRUE or FALSE answer. That's 50% wrong out of a possible 100%.

I will give you a chance to improve your score. Below is another question for you.

Am I to be graded by an errant, untrustable person posting these questions?

QUESTION #5 to mikesw: Jesus Christ died. TRUE or FALSE?


I will check your answers to Questions 3, 4, and 5 next time I log in.

Maybe you will recognize that Jesus died and was resurrected. Even in the human sense he is immortal. As to the divinity of Christ, the metaphysical aspects are tricky and would be totally neglected by the unitarian. That is just one of the many errors of the unitarian beliefs.

 

[Runningman]

Classical Jews do interpret Psalms 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah Runningman, see Wikipedia below.

According to classical Jewish sources, Psalm 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah. According to Metzudot, a classical Jewish commentary, the king mentioned in verse 2 is the Jewish Messiah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_45.

If the one called "God" in that verses is king Solomon, do you believe that he is really God Runningman?

There are too many Jewish commentaries to quote where they believe Psalm 45:6,7 is about king Solomon

[Psalms 45:6] THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND EVER: THE SCEPTRE OF THY KINGDOM IS A RIGHT SCEPTRE.
<<THY THRONE, O GOD>>: This is also explained from the Hebrew as referring to the Messiah whose throne is like the throne of God just as the throne of King Solomon was called the throne of God.
"THEN SOLOMON SAT ON THE THRONE OF THE LORD AS KING INSTEAD OF DAVID HIS FATHER, AND PROSPERED; AND ALL ISRAEL OBEYED HIM" [1-Chronicles 29:23].

source: https://britam.org/psalms/psalms45.html

Jews don't translate Psalm 45:6 (Psalm 45:7 in the Jewish Bible) as a reference to a god because Trinitarians have confused the issue with their translation: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm

Tehillim (Psalms) - Chapter 45
7Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.
8You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with oil of joy from among your peers.