Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[atpollard]

atpollard:

You are telling us what YOU believe. Suppose you copy-paste the definition of begotten from a reliable dictionary (along with the weblink) to prove to the rest of us that the word "begotten" means, according to you: "single of its kind, only."

John 1:18 [MGT] θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλποντοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
John 1:18 [NKJV] No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him].
μονογενὴς = this is the critical word in the original Greek.
This is the LINK to “Google Translate”
[You made this a little harder by rejecting most authoritative sources - like STRONG’S - as being Trinitarian lies. Google Translate doesn’t have a theological position … it is just translating a word.]
This is the result from Google Translate:
μονογενὴς (monogenís) = “only child”
Here is what STRONG’S says:
μονογενής monogenḗs, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:—only (begotten, child).
Here is what THAYER’S says:
μονογενής, -ές (μόνος and γένος) (Cicero, unigena; Vulg. [in Luke unicus, elsewhere] and in ecclesiastical writings unigenitus), single of its kind, only,[A. V. only-begotten]; used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents), Hesiod theog. 426, 448; Herodotus 7, 221; Plato, Critias 113 d.; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; 2, 7, 4;


Thus, the original GREEK word contains no “created” in its meaning. It just means that God has no children except Jesus … Jesus is an only-son.

 

[Peterlag]

Exactly, Peterlag. Not only that, Trinitarians can't get it through their heads that had Jesus been in his original godlike state (prior to him coming to earth) mere humans would not have been able to kill him.

Jesus was a god only while he was in heaven (and that's god in lower case). According to scripture ALL of the angels in heaven are given the title god.

"A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:" (Psalm 82:1 -- Berean Standard Bible)

Yeah... just the idea of killing God just floors me.

 

[Alter2Ego]

A question requiring a TRUE or FALSE answer does not provide for any "explanation with points" aka exceptions. The answer has to be either simply TRUE or FALSE and nothing else.

Below is an image of a scantron. Let me ask you this, Capbook: When taking exams in school and the answer is supposed to be either TRUE or FALSE on the scantron and you blot out the correct box that is either TRUE or FALSE, does that Scantron allow for an "explanation with points" for any of the answers?

Before I address your "scantron image," I noticed that you skip to answer my Post#80 response. Why Alter2Ego?
See it below;

And firstly, don't you know that your used of the "Tetragrammaton" is the Latinized?
Can you answer Yes or no? Or true or false?
I just to follow your style of questioning or you will have to reason and explain.

Psa 83:18 And let them know that You, Whose Name is יהוה, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Capbook,

The name Jehovah is the Latinized version of the Tetragrammaton, true. But what has that to do with the topic of this thread?

You are trying to change the goal post. It's called stalling. What are you running from? Oh, now I remember. You're running from the fact that Christendom's 3-in-1 god is pagan in origin and that you--as a Trinitarian--are disobeying Almighty Jehovah God who made it clear that he is singular.

“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- New World Translation)

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=deuteronomy+6%3A4&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:" (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- American Standard Version)

https://biblehub.com/asv/deuteronomy/6.htm

"Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;" (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- Young's Literal Translation)

Deuteronomy 6 YLT

"Hear, Israel; Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- Smith's Literal Translation

Deuteronomy 6 Smith's Literal Translation

"Hear, Israel: LORD JEHOVAH our God, LORD JEHOVAH is one:" (Deuteronomy 6:4 --Peshitta Holy Bible Translated"

Deuteronomy 6 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated

Look at the above. In addition to the New World Translation (published by Jehovah's people) even some of the Trinitarian Bible translators had the decency to include the most commonly accepted English translation of the Divine name in small portions of their Bibles. And you're making an issue of Jehovah's Witnesses using it? You should be ashamed for not doing likewise!

 

[mikesw]

Capbook,

The name Jehovah is the Latinized version of the Tetragrammaton, true. But what has that to do with the topic of this thread?

You are trying to change the goal post. It's called stalling. What are you running from? Oh, now I remember. You're running from the fact that Christendom's 3-in-1 god is pagan in origin and that you--as a Trinitarian--are disobeying Almighty Jehovah God who made it clear that he is singular.

“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- New World Translation)

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=deuteronomy+6%3A4&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:" (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- American Standard Version)

https://biblehub.com/asv/deuteronomy/6.htm

"Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;" (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- Young's Literal Translation)

Deuteronomy 6 YLT

"Hear, Israel; Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- Smith's Literal Translation

Deuteronomy 6 Smith's Literal Translation

"Hear, Israel: LORD JEHOVAH our God, LORD JEHOVAH is one:" (Deuteronomy 6:4 --Peshitta Holy Bible Translated"

Deuteronomy 6 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated

Look at the above. In addition to the New World Translation (published by Jehovah's people) even some of the Trinitarian Bible translators had the decency to include the most commonly accepted English translation of the Divine name in small portions of their Bibles. And you're making an issue of Jehovah's Witnesses using it? You should be ashamed for not doing likewise!

Oops. The English translations are using the invalid option of naming God. But also, the Oneness of God makes sense in light of the Triune essence of God. You may like using this improper naming, but it sure distracts from any reasoned discussion.

 

[amazing grace]

Yeah... just the idea of killing God just floors me.

Remember - he only died in his humanity not in his deity.

 

[Alter2Ego]

atpollard:

You are telling us what YOU believe. Suppose you copy-paste the definition of begotten from a reliable dictionary (along with the weblink) to prove to the rest of us that the word "begotten" means, according to you: "single of its kind, only." Meanwhile, I will go with Merriam-Webster and a couple of other dictionaries that give the correct meaning of the word begotten.

John 1:18 [MGT] θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλποντοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
John 1:18 [NKJV] No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him].
μονογενὴς = this is the critical word in the original Greek.
This is the LINK to “Google Translate”
[You made this a little harder by rejecting most authoritative sources - like STRONG’S - as being Trinitarian lies. Google Translate doesn’t have a theological position … it is just translating a word.]
This is the result from Google Translate:
μονογενὴς (monogenís) = “only child”
Here is what STRONG’S says:
μονογενής monogenḗs, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:—only (begotten, child).
Here is what THAYER’S says:
μονογενής, -ές (μόνος and γένος) (Cicero, unigena; Vulg. [in Luke unicus, elsewhere] and in ecclesiastical writings unigenitus), single of its kind, only,[A. V. only-begotten]; used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents), Hesiod theog. 426, 448; Herodotus 7, 221; Plato, Critias 113 d.; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; 2, 7, 4;


Thus, the original GREEK word contains no “created” in its meaning. It just means that God has no children except Jesus … Jesus is an only-son.

atpollard:

I asked you to quote from a reliable dictionary (along with its weblink) to show us where it defines the word begotten, to quote you: "single of its kind, only."

Instead, you quoted from Strong's Concordance which was published by Trinitarians and Thayer's Lexicon which was also published by Trinitarians. You don't need for me to tell you that Bible Concordances and Bible Lexicons were NOT written by inspiration of Jehovah God.


"James Strong (1822-1894), author of Strong’s Concordance, has been elevated to the position of fourth member of the Trinity by many. His corrupt Greek and Hebrew definitions pepper today’s preaching, as if his lexicon was the final and 67th book of the Bible. His liberal definitions are used as quick and weak patches to fill a void in sermons. The space would be better filled by a laborious looking up of all the Bible’s usages of a word."

A Dire Warning About Dr. James Strong

A Dire Warning About Dr. James Strong

www.jesusisprecious.org

Thayer's Lexicon is actually piggy-backing off Strong's Concordance. Joseph F. Thayer was a prominent member of Christendom. While some of his research work on the scriptures might be viewed as acceptable, one has to take some of his writings with a pinch of salt.

"Thayer's Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : coded with the numbering system from Strong's exhaustive concordance of the Bible"

Thayer's Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : coded with the numbering system from Strong's exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Thayer, Joseph Henry, 1828-1901 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xxi, 726 pages ; 24 cm

archive.org

Trinitarian publications have zero credibility when discussing the topic of a 3-prong god.

 

[Alter2Ego]

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

An eternal person cannot have a beginning.



DEFINITION OF ETERNAL:

"1: having no beginning and no end in time: lasting forever"

https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eternal

That's the first clue that Clause #3 where it says: "and the Word was God," is nothing more than manipulation of scripture by Trinitarian Bible translators.

Ummm … “In the beginning was the word” indicates that when EVERYTHING BEGAN (the beginning = second 1 of minute 1 of hour 1 of day 1 of creation) “the WORD” already existed (“was”: a form of the verb “to be” indicating past tense; already existed).

You are acting as if it says “In the beginning God created the Word”, but it does NOT say that.

That's incorrect, atpollard. You're trying to talk your way around scripture. The context to John 1:1 further demonstrates that the individual called "the Word" aka Jesus Christ, had a beginning and was therefore a created being. Look, below, at part of the context to John 1:1 from three different Trinitarian Bibles.


"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known." (John 1:18 -- Berean Literal Bible)

John 1 BLB

"God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare." (John 1:18 -- Young's Literal Translation)

https://biblehub.com/ylt/john/1.htm

"None has seen God at any time; the only born Son, he being in the bosom of the Father, he has declared." (John 1:18 -- Smith's Literal Translation)

https://biblehub.com/slt/john/1.htm

A begotten person is a created being. And all created beings had to have had a beginning.

"begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Alter2Ego]

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

An eternal person cannot have a beginning.



DEFINITION OF ETERNAL:

"1: having no beginning and no end in time: lasting forever"

https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eternal

That's the first clue that Clause #3 where it says: "and the Word was God," is nothing more than manipulation of scripture by Trinitarian Bible translators.

In the beginning of what?

The beginning of eternity or the beginning of this ball of mud we walk on?

John 1:1 at Clause #1 is with reference to the beginning of creation. Jesus Christ aka "the Word," is a created being. John 1:1 at clause #1 informs the reader that Jesus/the Word had a beginning. This is confirmed at John 1:18 where it describes Jesus/the Word as "begotten."

Go to Post 167 for a fuller explanation where I provided scriptural quotations as well as the definition of the word "begotten" from Merriam-Webster's dictionary. Below is the link to that post.

Post in thread 'Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?'

Today at 4:49 PM

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE...

• Alter2Ego

 

[atpollard]

atpollard:

I asked you to quote from a reliable dictionary (along with its weblink) to show us where it defines the word begotten, to quote you: "single of its kind, only."

Why don’t you quote the definition of μονογενὴς (the actual word written by John in 1:18) from YOUR Koine Greek dictionary (since you reject every Koine Greek source I present).

For the record, I also offered “Google Translate” as a source (with the requested link). Google does not define the Greek “μονογενὴς” as you define the English “begotten” either (Is Google also a biased Trinitarian source?)

You are not one of those KJVO people that think God dictated the Bible in English are you?

 

[atpollard]

John 1:1 at Clause #1 is with reference to the beginning of creation. Jesus Christ aka "the Word," is a created being. John 1:1 at clause #1 informs the reader that Jesus/the Word had a beginning.

Wow, not only can you not READ what is written in John 1:1 (which does NOT state that the Word had a beginning, it states that the Word “WAS” - already existed - in the beginning) … you are UNWILLING to even listen when multiple people explain your reading comprehension error to you.

Time to shake off the dust and leave the dead to bury the dead. Only God has the ability to grant eyes to see and ears to hear. (Jesus is God, but I am not … so I leave you in His hands).

 

[Alter2Ego]

atpollard:

I asked you to quote from a reliable dictionary (along with its weblink) to show us where it defines the word begotten, to quote you: "single of its kind, only."

Why don’t you quote the definition of μονογενὴς (the actual word written by John in 1:18) from YOUR Koine Greek dictionary (since you reject every Koine Greek source I present).

For the record, I also offered “Google Translate” as a source (with the requested link). Google does not define the Greek “μονογενὴς” as you define the English “begotten” either (Is Google also a biased Trinitarian source?)

You are not one of those KJVO people that think God dictated the Bible in English are you?

atpollard:

I don't speak Greek.

Until you can present the definition of the word "begotten" from a commonly accepted English dictionary, your above comments amount to stalling. You're trying to buy time so that you can post additional tripe and confuse the issue.

Merriam-Webster's English dictionary translates the word "begotten" as someone who was created aka someone who had a beginning. Below are a few more English dictionaries where the word "beget" is defined. Focus on the words bolded in red.

FYI: The word "begotten" is the past participle of the word "beget."


beget

Word forms: begets, begetting, begot, begotten
1. verb
To beget something means to cause it to happen or be created.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/beget

beget
verb [ T ]

present participle begetting | past tense begot or begat | past participle begotten or begot

old use
to be the father of:
In the Bible it says that Adam begat Cain and Abel.

beget

1. to be the father of: 2. to cause: 3. to be the father of:

dictionary.cambridge.org

2. (old use, for example in the Bible) beget somebody to become the father of a child
Isaac begat Jacob.

beget verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced American Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of beget verb in Oxford Advanced American Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

The fact that the same word beget/begat/begotten is used when speaking about Adam begetting Cain and Abel and Isaac begetting Jacob should make it clear to any honest-hearted person that since the same word "beget/begat/begotten" is used in relationship to Jehovah and Jesus, then it means Jesus was a created being who had a beginning, as was the case with Cain and Abel and Jacob. But Trinitarians go to great trouble trying to argue that the same word beget/begat/begotten has a completely different meaning when it's applied to Jesus Christ.

Trinitarians who show up on these websites to debate DO NOT want to be corrected by scripture. They don't care what the Bible says. It's about them and their love affair with traditions of men, plan and simple.