The Trinity and the Incarnation

[amazing grace]

He can’t show us where Jesus had faith. Let alone unbelief

I don't want to accuse anyone of downright lying but either praise_yeshua is deliberately twisting my statements or maybe he doesn't fully understands the English language - I prefer to believe the last.
Please read the whole context of the conversation before you too accuse me of saying something I didn't such as "Jesus struggled with unbelief."

How is this disrespectful to Jesus Christ?

Only God has such power over them. Even satan was no match for Him at His weakest point.

ONLY GOD HAS SUCH POWER OVER THEM . . . . Referencing Jesus as God even though it was God working through Jesus Christ.
EVEN SATAN WAS NO MATCH FOR HIM (GOD) AT HIS (GOD'S) WEAKEST POINT . . . . Satan was no match for God ---- it turns out Satan was no match for the Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God . . . either.

Of course believing Jesus was God ----- Satan is no match for God!!! Heck, God cannot be tempted with evil so with your understanding WHY EVEN WASTE TIME TRYING TO TEMPT HIM!!!!! Yet our Lord Jesus Christ, the man from Nazareth was a match against Satan - He had just been anointed by God his Father to sustain him then afterward, angels were sent to administer to him . . . What total disrespect, what belittling of our Lord Jesus Christ and his suffering!!!!!

And we know not even any Angel of God can stand against him, let alone any man.

In that one sentence alone the temptations and the suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ was totally wiped out, totally negated and shows the total disregard of the Lord's Messiah, the one God sent to be the Savior of the world.

You can't seriously think you have the same authority and power as Jesus Christ. I've meet many people in my life that believe this yet I've never meet anyone that actually had what they claimed they had.

Why don't you "jump to where the rubber meets the road". Go ahead and claim you have everything Jesus has and more. Be bold. That is what you believe. Say it and lets dissect it.

How did you draw that conclusion ^^^^^ Where did I ever say or claim the above ^^^?

---- But Jesus did say “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. . . . Did Jesus lie? I honestly believe we do not live up TO THE FULL POTENTIAL OF THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT RESIDING IN US . . . We don't walk in the power given us . . . the apostles did . . . And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. Acts 2:42,43

----- And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” ---- [Mark 9]

all things are possible for one who believes . . . help our unbelief! . . . . I included this from Mark 9 in reference to all of us not living up to our full potential in the power of the Spirit residing in us.

 

[civic]

I don't want to accuse anyone of downright lying but either praise_yeshua is deliberately twisting my statements or maybe he doesn't fully understands the English language - I prefer to believe the last.
Please read the whole context of the conversation before you too accuse me of saying something I didn't such as "Jesus struggled with unbelief."


ONLY GOD HAS SUCH POWER OVER THEM . . . . Referencing Jesus as God even though it was God working through Jesus Christ.
EVEN SATAN WAS NO MATCH FOR HIM (GOD) AT HIS (GOD'S) WEAKEST POINT . . . . Satan was no match for God ---- it turns out Satan was no match for the Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God . . . either.


In that one sentence alone the temptations and the suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ was totally wiped out, totally negated and shows the total disregard of the Lord's Messiah, the one God sent to be the Savior of the world.

How did you draw that conclusion ^^^^^ Where did I ever say or claim the above ^^^?

---- But Jesus did say “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. . . . Did Jesus lie? I honestly believe we do not live up TO THE FULL POTENTIAL OF THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT RESIDING IN US . . . We don't walk in the power given us . . . the apostles did . . . And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. Acts 2:42,43

----- And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” ---- [Mark 9]

all things are possible for one who believes . . . help our unbelief! . . . . I included this from Mark 9 in reference to all of us not living up to our full potential in the power of the Spirit residing in us.

Not really since God was tempted/ tested many many times in the OT. Jesus was in the NT. It’s the same Greek word.

Could Jesus have sinned ?

There are two sides to this interesting question. It is important to remember that this is not a question of whether Jesus sinned. Both sides agree, as the Bible clearly says, that Jesus did not sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22). The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to “impeccability” believe that Jesus could not have sinned. Those who hold to “peccability” believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did not. Which view is correct? The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable—Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him” (Colossians 1:19). Colossians 2:9 adds, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

To be tempted is not, in and of itself, sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for the word “tempted”:

1) To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought; the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition one except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Therefore, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless.

Those who hold to peccability believe that, if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned, God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows, not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have.

Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, butHe does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: “the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16 NKJV). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22).got ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[mikesw]

The unitarians like to say God cannot be tempted. But the OT shows this happening. We cannot assume that God was about to sin though.
Exodus 17:1–2 (NKJV)
1Then all the congregation of the children of Israel set out on their journey from the Wilderness of Sin, according to the commandment of the LORD, and camped in Rephidim; but there was no water for the people to drink.
2Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, “Give us water, that we may drink.” So Moses said to them, “Why do you contend with me? Why do you tempt the LORD?”

The unitarians hyperliteralize scripture and apply one verse to control all others. Effectively in this situation, we see Moses presenting a different application of the concept from what James says.

James 1:13 (ESV)
13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

I do appreciate civic's consideration of the two options. There is no reason to think Jesus might be swayed to sin. The devil was not particularly insightful to consider Jesus as being unswayed by temptation. Yet we can see Jesus's flesh as desiring some of what was offered. That does not mean he would give in to the flesh. It does not nullify him having that experience in the flesh. Nor does the resistance to this temptation have to reflect a mere human exhibiting the ability to resist such level of sin while still succeeding in avoiding that sin. That does not seem to be the message.

 

[amazing grace]

Not really since God was tempted/ tested many many times in the OT. Jesus was in the NT. It’s the same Greek word.

Scripture says God CANNOT be tempted - James 1:13. God is not a man, a human being.
The same primary Greek word - peiraza (verb) and peirasmos (noun) - is used for both "tested" and "tempted" in the New Testament, with context determining the meaning (positive "test" for strengthening vs. negative "temptation" to sin).

Could Jesus have sinned ?

There are two sides to this interesting question. It is important to remember that this is not a question of whether Jesus sinned. Both sides agree, as the Bible clearly says, that Jesus did not sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22). The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to “impeccability” believe that Jesus could not have sinned. Those who hold to “peccability” believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did not. Which view is correct? The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable—Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him” (Colossians 1:19). Colossians 2:9 adds, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

I KNOW JESUS DID NOT SIN!!!!!!! If Jesus could have sinned then being taken into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan would make sense . . . . if not, then why tempt him at all? Why have the record in scripture of Jesus being tempted if it meant nothing? If he could have sinned he would still be able to sin today????? That makes absolutely no sense! He is exalted to the right hand of God - he is in the dwelling place of God ---- he is now a life-giving spirit.
To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin!!!!!!! is another absolutely senseless statement. For those of us who believe Jesus was a human being LIKE US - we don't believe that God could sin. Yes, God dwelt in Jesus - Jesus was given the Spirit without measure at his baptism . . . the fullness of every character of God lives in Jesus Christ . . . Yes, God was in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:10) but he is not God himself.
And it means he was not tempted in every respect as we are . . . . if he couldn't be tempted in the first place!
If it was so easy for Jesus - why did the angels have to minister to him after his temptations by Satan?

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

Correct, Jesus did not have a sinful nature. He remained sinless because he remained obedient to God his Father in all things not because he was God.
So if it is against his very nature to sin because he is God ---- He did not suffer being tempted, he cannot actually be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, our weakness; God has no weaknesses and he was not actually tempted in all points like we are because God cannot be tempted . . . . Satan wasted his time tempting Jesus and there was no lesson there for us to learn from the record of him being tempted. Shouldn't we have learned how to stand against temptation? Wasn't that the point of Jesus being tempted yet remaining sinless as an example?

To be tempted is not, in and of itself, sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for the word “tempted”:
1) To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought; the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition one except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Therefore, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless.

Those who hold to peccability believe that, if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned, God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows, not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have.

that's not what is said above about 'peccability'. He had to experience what it is truly like to be tempted in order to sympathize with our weaknesses. It is a greater accomplishment in being tempted with the capacity of failing YET REMAINING SINLESS than it is to be tempted but remain sinless because you are God.

Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: “the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16 NKJV). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22).got ?

hope this helps !!!

If it was so easy for Jesus - why did the angels have to minister to him after his temptations by Satan?

Adam did not know what it was like to sin either but he did. Sin is disobedience to God . . . Jesus remained sinless through being tempted because of his obedience to God.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.