The Trinity and the Incarnation

[amazing grace]

Thanks for that information but in the New Testament the Greek equivalent Apostolos (“one sent”) is used for the Twelve and for other commissioned messengers—but never as a title for Jesus. Have you ever heard of the term Apostle Jesus? Of course not. That's because Jesus is consistently presented as categorically above the Apostolic office: He is the tabernacled Word who was God. Jesus is the sender of apostles (Matt 10:1–2; John 20:21), the source of their authority, and the one who possesses authority inherently, not derivatively. The NT reserves Apostolos for those who are sent by Christ; Jesus is not placed among them because He is the Son, not a mere shaliaḥ. Thus the biblical pattern is clear: a shaliaḥ or Apostolos acts with another’s authority, but Jesus is the One whose authority originates from Himself, eternally above prophets, angels, servants, and apostles.

And many times does Jesus say the Father sent him, i.e. 'one sent' John 5:23,30,36,37; John 6:39,44,57; John 8:16,18,29,42; etc.
John 20:21 - which you referenced:
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me (apostellō), even so send I you.

Here is ONE verse where Jesus is called an apostle: Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; (Hebrews 3:1)

Thanks.

 

[synergy]

And many times does Jesus say the Father sent him, i.e. 'one sent' John 5:23,30,36,37; John 6:39,44,57; John 8:16,18,29,42; etc.
John 20:21 - which you referenced:
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me (apostellō), even so send I you.

John 5:23 uses the word πεμψαντα which is to dispatch. We all know that the Word, who was God, was dispatched by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth. You're not telling us anything new here.

Here is ONE verse where Jesus is called an apostle: Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; (Hebrews 3:1)

Thanks.

Notice that Jesus is called “The Apostle” in Hebrews 3:1. So Jesus cannot be an Apostle in the office sense because there were 12 Apostles. That office title was used exclusively for the Twelve or for Paul, who were subordinate agents commissioned by Christ. Hebrews is contrasting Jesus with Moses and every other human shaliaḥ-type figure: whereas prophets and apostles carry delegated authority, Jesus is the divine Son sent from the Father with inherent authority, the very source from which the apostolic office derives. Thus, the author uses “The Apostle” to highlight His heavenly mission, not to place Him among the ranks of the apostolic band. Jesus is the incarnated Word who was God. And because God can never cease to be God then Jesus is God. Do you believe John?

Anyways, you've failed to prove that there is any mention of agent or agency in the entire Bible. That's good enough for me to file away that concept where it belongs.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Abraham met him and gave Him a tithe.

The Bible says Jesus and Melchizedek have an eternal priesthood. That's two different people. And Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Jesus, because Mel was a priest before the institution of the Levitical priesthood and Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, meaning he did not qualify to be a priest under the Law. This is the way to make Jesus an eternal priest and that works, but there isn't any evidence that Mel is a theophany of God.

I also might add, believers are said to be eternal priests too. So your "eternal priest" angle doesn't work. Want to try a different angle?

Revelation 1
6who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen.

 

[Capbook]

The Bible says Jesus and Melchizedek have an eternal priesthood. That's two different people. And Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Jesus, because Mel was a priest before the institution of the Levitical priesthood and Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, meaning he did not qualify to be a priest under the Law. This is the way to make Jesus an eternal priest and that works, but there isn't any evidence that Mel is a theophany of God.

I also might add, believers are said to be eternal priests too. So your "eternal priest" angle doesn't work. Want to try a different angle?

Revelation 1
6who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen.

Jesus and Melchizedek were already priest, but your reference are yet to be priest, that's the difference Runningman.

 

[amazing grace]

John 5:23 uses the word πεμψαντα which is to dispatch. We all know that the Word, who was God, was dispatched by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth. You're not telling us anything new here.

Notice that Jesus is called “The Apostle” in Hebrews 3:1. So Jesus cannot be an Apostle in the office sense because there were 12 Apostles. That office title was used exclusively for the Twelve or for Paul, who were subordinate agents commissioned by Christ. Hebrews is contrasting Jesus with Moses and every other human shaliaḥ-type figure: whereas prophets and apostles carry delegated authority, Jesus is the divine Son sent from the Father with inherent authority, the very source from which the apostolic office derives. Thus, the author uses “The Apostle” to highlight His heavenly mission, not to place Him among the ranks of the apostolic band. Jesus is the incarnated Word who was God. And because God can never cease to be God then Jesus is God. Do you believe John?

Anyways, you've failed to prove that there is any mention of agent or agency in the entire Bible. That's good enough for me to file away that concept where it belongs.

Thanks - It really doesn't matter to me whether you understand a Jewish concept - a concept that was in play and is still in play and helps with Biblical understanding concerning people sent out to do a mission have the authority of the one who sent them to speak and act as the sender himself. And if scripture calls Jesus an Apostle, I am not going to disregard it or make excuses for it.

 

[synergy]

Thanks - It really doesn't matter to me whether you understand a Jewish concept - a concept that was in play and is still in play and helps with Biblical understanding concerning people sent out to do a mission have the authority of the one who sent them to speak and act as the sender himself. And if scripture calls Jesus an Apostle, I am not going to disregard it or make excuses for it.

Where does the Bible say Jesus is an Apostle, one of many? Heb 3:1 says Jesus is The Apostle, singular - no other Apostle. Can your unitarianism resolve that which seems to be at first glance a contradiction? IOW, why does Scripture declare Jesus the only Apostle when we know there were 12 Apostles?

 

[amazing grace]

Where does the Bible say Jesus is an Apostle, one of many? Heb 3:1 says Jesus is The Apostle, singular - no other Apostle. Can your unitarianism resolve that which seems to be at first glance a contradiction? IOW, why does Scripture declare Jesus the only Apostle when we know there were 12 Apostles?

An. . . the ----- tomato, tomatoe . . . potato, potatoe

Since in these last days God has chosen to speak to us his Son, Jesus----maybe that makes Jesus just a little superior to others sent by God, i.e. apostles. He was sent by God himself as God's personal spokesperson considering he spoke what God gave him to speak. . . . he spoke the things God taught him to speak. Jesus is the Apostle because God sent Him to speak on His behalf ----- The twelve were apostles sent by Jesus on his behalf.

 

[Runningman]

Where does the Bible say Jesus is an Apostle, one of many? Heb 3:1 says Jesus is The Apostle, singular - no other Apostle. Can your unitarianism resolve that which seems to be at first glance a contradiction? IOW, why does Scripture declare Jesus the only Apostle when we know there were 12 Apostles?

Jesus being an apostle is a powerful argument against those who accuse him of being God. So what we have throughout the Bible are many people who are sent whether by God or sent by other people. Those who are sent are, especially for a specific belief or cause, are apostles. So being sent doesn't mean someone is the same as the one who sent them. The sender versus sent dynamic means one isn't the other. Notice how God/the Father/YHWH is never described as being sent in the Bible. See the difference?

 

[synergy]

An. . . the ----- tomato, tomatoe . . . potato, potatoe

Since in these last days God has chosen to speak to us his Son, Jesus----maybe that makes Jesus just a little superior to others sent by God, i.e. apostles. He was sent by God himself as God's personal spokesperson considering he spoke what God gave him to speak. . . . he spoke the things God taught him to speak. Jesus is the Apostle because God sent Him to speak on His behalf ----- The twelve were apostles sent by Jesus on his behalf.

The Bible already records the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), was dispatched (sent) by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14). When will you acknowledge John 1:1, John 1:14, and the rest of the Bible for that matter?

 

[synergy]

Jesus being an apostle

Wrong. Nowhere does the Bible refer to Jesus as an Apostle. Heb 3:1 says Jesus is The Apostle, singular - no other Apostle. Can your unitarianism resolve that which seems to be at first glance a contradiction? IOW, why does Scripture declare Jesus the only Apostle when we know there were 12 Apostles?

 

[amazing grace]

The Bible already records the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), was dispatched (sent) by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14). When will you acknowledge John 1:1, John 1:14, and the rest of the Bible for that matter?

Yeah - God the Father sent God as Jesus on Earth . . . .

You would be correct in your assumption of John 1:1c IF there was a definite article before 'God' - reading as 'the God'. =
. . . and the word was 'the' God.

I probably won't ever acknowledge that Almighty God became a human being. I acknowledge scripture as a whole - I just don't believe that is what scripture teaches.

 

[synergy]

Yeah - God the Father sent God as Jesus on Earth . . . .

You would be correct in your assumption of John 1:1c IF there was a definite article before 'God' - reading as 'the God'. =
. . . and the word was 'the' God.

That would make us all Modalists. You arguments fails.

I probably won't ever acknowledge that Almighty God became a human being. I acknowledge scripture as a whole - I just don't believe that is what scripture teaches.

In what way does John 1:1, 1:14 not teach us that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), was dispatched (sent) by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14)?

 

[Runningman]

Wrong. Nowhere does the Bible refer to Jesus as an Apostle. Heb 3:1 says Jesus is The Apostle, singular - no other Apostle. Can your unitarianism resolve that which seems to be at first glance a contradiction? IOW, why does Scripture declare Jesus the only Apostle when we know there were 12 Apostles?

Jesus was an ambassador for the gospel since Jesus didn't create the gospel. The Bible says Jesus got his teachings from the Father about what to say (John 8:28) and Jesus said his teachings are his not his own in John 7:16. There are also more than just 12 apostles, but the original 12 were like Jesus' inner circle of his closest followers. There was also the 72 who were sent out to preach in Luke 10:1.

 

[amazing grace]

Yeah - God the Father sent God as Jesus on Earth . . . .

You would be correct in your assumption of John 1:1c IF there was a definite article before 'God' - reading as 'the God'. =
. . . and the word was 'the' God.

That would make us all Modalists. You arguments fails.

HOW?

The Bible already records the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), was dispatched (sent) by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14). When will you acknowledge John 1:1, John 1:14, and the rest of the Bible for that matter?

According to your understanding of John 1:1c you believe that the 'Word' was 'the God' (equivalent to being God) and that the 'Word' who was 'the God' was dispatched by the Father who is the God to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth. . . . How is that Modalist? ----- God the Father sent God the Son as Jesus on earth

In what way does John 1:1, 1:14 not teach us that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), was dispatched (sent) by the Father to tabernacle as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14)?

You would be correct in your assumption of John 1:1c IF there was a definite article before 'God' - reading as 'the God'. =
. . . and the word was 'the' God.

 

[charismaticlady]

First off, I didn't swear . . . and nope, that's not what it is.

Yes, there is a hierarchy within God's created angels. Did I say Gabriel was the Angel of the LORD? The only angels I know of that are named in scripture are Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer-who was the fallen angel.
Nope, Jesus had a beginning.
An angel fought with Jacob . . . In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor. He met God at Bethel, and there God spoke with us— Hosea 12:3,4
Jacob met God via the angel ---- He fought with God via the angel . . . .
AGAIN:

God is the principal.

the angel is SENT by God as HIS agent.

The Agenta ka the angel which fought with Jacob, acts on behalf of the principal.

A person's (the God's) agent, in this case, an angel, is regarded as the person (the God) himself.

The Angel acting as the agent sent by God fought with Jacob, fully representing God AS God.

Its still swearing when we know what it was originally.

 

[charismaticlady]

The Bible says Jesus and Melchizedek have an eternal priesthood. That's two different people. And Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Jesus, because Mel was a priest before the institution of the Levitical priesthood and Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, meaning he did not qualify to be a priest under the Law. This is the way to make Jesus an eternal priest and that works, but there isn't any evidence that Mel is a theophany of God.

I also might add, believers are said to be eternal priests too. So your "eternal priest" angle doesn't work. Want to try a different angle?

Revelation 1
6who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen.

Melchizedek had no father or mother. NOT HUMAN.

 

[mikesw]

Yep, Jesus said not man had seen the Father - and Jesus, the only begotten Son, has declared him, made him known.

It was usually an angel they saw which fully represented God.

Still waiting for a simple answer.

The pre-existing One is seen interacting with saints of old. Not every angelic appearance is thought to be this One who became incarnate. We see runningman making the error that, despite the wording of key passages, no angelic appearance was this One who became incarnate as Jesus. If we are recognizing scripture testimony, we have the likely answer what he was doing.

 

[Runningman]

Melchizedek had no father or mother. NOT HUMAN.

He does have a human father and mother, but his genealogy was lost. Unless you're saying Jesus doesn't have a mother and father contrary to Scripture stating that he does.

 

[amazing grace]

Its still swearing when we know what it was originally.

swearing: "the use of language regarded as coarse, blasphemous, or otherwise unacceptable in polite or formal speech in order to express anger or other strong emotion."

No, I did not swear - I quoted where the 'man' that wrestled with Jacob was said to be an 'angel' in Hosea. Angels did appear as men, made themselves visible, when it was necessary.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Wrong. Nowhere does the Bible refer to Jesus as an Apostle. Heb 3:1 says Jesus is The Apostle, singular - no other Apostle. Can your unitarianism resolve that which seems to be at first glance a contradiction? IOW, why does Scripture declare Jesus the only Apostle when we know there were 12 Apostles?

Spot on.

Posted are the various recognizable translations and not one of them say "AN" ... most say "the" , a couple like the Niv and ESV say "our". Only the Lamsa and Aramaic Bibles say "this apostle" Kind of like an? See below" But that should influence no one as 99 and 44/100% people on here avoid the Aramaic translation like the are the plague.

New International Version
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

English Standard Version
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

Berean Standard Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your focus on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, carefully consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

King James Bible
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

New King James Version
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus;

NASB 1995
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

NASB 1977
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.

Legacy Standard Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession—Jesus,

Amplified Bible
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, [thoughtfully and attentively] consider the Apostle and High Priest whom we confessed [as ours when we accepted Him as Savior], namely, Jesus;

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, holy brothers and companions in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession;

American Standard Version
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

Contemporary English Version
My friends, God has chosen you to be his holy people. So think about Jesus, the one we call our apostle and high priest!

English Revised Version
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Brothers and sisters, you are holy partners in a heavenly calling. So look carefully at Jesus, the apostle and chief priest about whom we make our declaration of faith.

International Standard Version
Therefore, holy brothers, partners in a heavenly calling, keep your focus on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.

NET Bible
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partners in a heavenly calling, take note of Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess,

New Heart English Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus;

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Weymouth New Testament
Therefore, holy brethren, sharers with others in a heavenly invitation, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest whose followers we profess to be.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your focus on Jesus Christ, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

World English Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus,
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
For this reason, holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and Chief Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, carefully consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

Young's Literal Translation
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the apostle and chief priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,

New American Bible
Therefore, holy “brothers,” sharing in a heavenly calling, reflect on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

New Revised Standard Version
Therefore, brothers and sisters, holy partners in a heavenly calling, consider that Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
FROM henceforth, O my holy brethren, called by a call from heaven, look to this Apostle and High Priest of our faith, Jesus Christ:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore my holy brethren, who are called with a calling from Heaven, consider This Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Yeshua The Messiah,

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

Godbey New Testament
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our profession;

Haweis New Testament
WHEREFORE, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, contemplate the apostle and high-priest whom ye confess, Jesus Christ;

Mace New Testament
Wherefore, christian brethren, you who are called to an heavenly inheritance, consider the apostle and high priest of the faith we profess, even Christ Jesus;

Weymouth New Testament
Therefore, holy brethren, sharers with others in a heavenly invitation, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest whose followers we profess to be.

Worrell New Testament
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a Heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus,

Worsley New Testament
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high-priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;