The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

[Capbook]

Correct. Only the Father forgives sins in heaven. That's what we are saying. You seem to be catching on.

Runningman, your statements seems inconsistent, in your Post#395, below was what you said;

"Blasphemy against the Son is forgivable, blasphemy against the Spirit (the Spirit is the Father according to John 4:23,24) is not forgivable."

This reply, you believe the Father forgive sins, but in your Post#395, do not forgive.

Care enough to explain?

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, your statements seems inconsistent, in your Post#395, below was what you said;

"Blasphemy against the Son is forgivable, blasphemy against the Spirit (the Spirit is the Father according to John 4:23,24) is not forgivable."

This reply, you believe the Father forgive sins, but in your Post#395, do not forgive.

Care enough to explain?

Yes, but blasphemy against the Spirit (the Spirit is the Father according to John 4:23,24) is not forgivable. I don't see any inconsistency in what Jesus said. Generally speaking, the Father forgives sins, but about this specific sin He does not.

 

[Capbook]

Yes, but blasphemy against the Spirit (the Spirit is the Father according to John 4:23,24) is not forgivable. I don't see any inconsistency in what Jesus said. Generally speaking, the Father forgives sins, but about this specific sin He does not.

Ok, as the Father forgive those that blaspheme Him, but the Holy Spirit do not, are they the same person with same will?

The word "blasphemes" with Strong#G987, in Greek "βλασφημέω blasphēmeō" Bible lexicon defined it as means - to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme.

Thus, with Bible lexicon definition it proves the God's nature of the Holy Spirit as "blasphemes" means to speak impious irreverence to God.

Luke 12:10 "R1And everyoneG3956 whoG3739 N1speaksG3004 a wordG3056 againstG1519 the SonG5207 of ManG444, it will be forgivenG863 him; but he who blasphemesG987 againstG1519 the HolyG40 SpiritG4151, it will not be forgivenG863 him.
G987
βλασφημέω blasphēmeō
34x: to defame, revile, slander, Mat_27:39; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme, Mat_9:3; Mat_26:65.

 

[Runningman]

Ok, as the Father forgive those that blaspheme Him, but the Holy Spirit do not, are they the same person with same will?

The word "blasphemes" with Strong#G987, in Greek "βλασφημέω blasphēmeō" Bible lexicon defined it as means - to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme.

Thus, with Bible lexicon definition it proves the God's nature of the Holy Spirit as "blasphemes" means to speak impious irreverence to God.

Luke 12:10 "R1And everyoneG3956 whoG3739 N1speaksG3004 a wordG3056 againstG1519 the SonG5207 of ManG444, it will be forgivenG863 him; but he who blasphemesG987 againstG1519 the HolyG40 SpiritG4151, it will not be forgivenG863 him.
G987
βλασφημέω blasphēmeō
34x: to defame, revile, slander, Mat_27:39; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme, Mat_9:3; Mat_26:65.

Not sure where you got the idea "as the Father forgive those that blaspheme Him" since the Bible never says that. To early Christians, there was no third person in a trinity known as a Holy Spirit. There was the Father only, who they knew as the Spirit or Holy Spirit. Binitarianism developed later as a sectarian movement. The early proto-trinitarians were not orthodox either. The Holy Spirit you think is a third person was not developed until the later 4th century at the council of Constantinople and that is when trinitarianism was official created. The earliest Jesus-taught view of God is Unitarian, strictly monotheistic.

 

[Capbook]

Not sure where you got the idea "as the Father forgive those that blaspheme Him" since the Bible never says that.

Runningman, do you pray the Lord's Prayer? Or you are just familiar with it?
In Matthew 6:12, God will forgive our "debts" it bear the Strong#G3783, in Greek "ὀφείλημα opheilēma" Bible lexicon defined it as means - sin. Is to blaspheme the Father not a sin Runningman?

(NAS95+) Mat 6:12 'And R1forgiveG863 us our debtsG3783, as we alsoG2532 have forgivenG863 our debtorsG3781.

G3783
ὀφείλημα opheilēma
2x: a debt; a due, Rom_4:4, in NT a delinquency, offence, fault, sin, Mat_6:12, cf. v. 14.

To early Christians, there was no third person in a trinity known as a Holy Spirit. There was the Father only, who they knew as the Spirit or Holy Spirit. Binitarianism developed later as a sectarian movement. The early proto-trinitarians were not orthodox either. The Holy Spirit you think is a third person was not developed until the later 4th century at the council of Constantinople and that is when trinitarianism was official created. The earliest Jesus-taught view of God is Unitarian, strictly monotheistic.

Runningman, you did not answer my question.
Again, the Father forgives any sin, while the Holy Spirit cannot forgive those who blaspheme Him, are they have the same will or not?

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, do you pray the Lord's Prayer? Or you are just familiar with it?
In Matthew 6:12, God will forgive our "debts" it bear the Strong#G3783, in Greek "ὀφείλημα opheilēma" Bible lexicon defined it as means - sin. Is to blaspheme the Father not a sin Runningman?

(NAS95+) Mat 6:12 'And R1forgiveG863 us our debtsG3783, as we alsoG2532 have forgivenG863 our debtorsG3781.

G3783
ὀφείλημα opheilēma
2x: a debt; a due, Rom_4:4, in NT a delinquency, offence, fault, sin, Mat_6:12, cf. v. 14.

Runningman, you did not answer my question.
Again, the Father forgives any sin, while the Holy Spirit cannot forgive those who blaspheme Him, are they have the same will or not?

Where did you get the idea that the Father forgives any sin from?

 

[Capbook]

Where did you get the idea that the Father forgives any sin from?

When God cleanse us from "all unrighteousness," is unrighteousness not a sin to you Runningman?

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Runningman]

When God cleanse us from "all unrighteousness," is unrighteousness not a sin to you Runningman?

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Right, but that doesn't undo what Jesus taught about the unforgivable sin. Generally speaking, yes, practically all of the sins are forgivable except for blaspheming God.

I have a question, why would it be forgivable to blaspheme Jesus, the Son of God, but not forgivable to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? If they are both God, then there shouldn't be a difference but there is. See that?

 

[Capbook]

Right, but that doesn't undo what Jesus taught about the unforgivable sin. Generally speaking, yes, practically all of the sins are forgivable except for blaspheming God.

Good, Runningman for the God that will not forgive when blaspheme is the Holy Spirit.
You hit it right Runningman.
That's a start understanding the truth.

I have a question, why would it be forgivable to blaspheme Jesus, the Son of God, but not forgivable to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? If they are both God, then there shouldn't be a difference but there is. See that?

Why, because that proves that they don't have the same will, and also confirms that they are separate and distinct person to each other.
Yes, they are one in the nature of God, in three person whom each have will, emotions and thought Runningman.

Why would it be forgivable to blaspheme Jesus? Because Jesus said it. (Mat 12:31,32)

Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[JesusFan]

Right, but that doesn't undo what Jesus taught about the unforgivable sin. Generally speaking, yes, practically all of the sins are forgivable except for blaspheming God.

I have a question, why would it be forgivable to blaspheme Jesus, the Son of God, but not forgivable to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? If they are both God, then there shouldn't be a difference but there is. See that?

Because it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict lost sinners of their sins, need for Jesus, and to allow them to call now upon Jesus as their Lord and God , and when one rejects that work, they are accepting spirit of antichrist instead

 

[Runningman]

Good, Runningman for the God that will not forgive when blaspheme is the Holy Spirit.
You hit it right Runningman.
That's a start understanding the truth.

Why, because that proves that they don't have the same will, and also confirms that they are separate and distinct person to each other.
Yes, they are one in the nature of God, in three person whom each have will, emotions and thought Runningman.

Why would it be forgivable to blaspheme Jesus? Because Jesus said it. (Mat 12:31,32)

Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now you seem to be connecting the dots. The Father is that Holy Spirit. It is not to say that 1 John 1:9 nullifies what Jesus says. Three persons co-equal with one God is not compatible with your theory that blasphemy against one of them can be forgiven, while blasphemy against the other cannot be forgiven, and then the other is going around the others and forgiving everything.

 

[Runningman]

Because it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict lost sinners of their sins, need for Jesus, and to allow them to call now upon Jesus as their Lord and God , and when one rejects that work, they are accepting spirit of antichrist instead

Then why are you not convicted of your idolatry? By your own explanation, you must not have the Holy Spirit.

 

[JesusFan]

Then why are you not convicted of your idolatry? By your own explanation, you must not have the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit revealed to me Jesus is the Lord, is God in human flesh

 

[Runningman]

The Holy Spirit revealed to me Jesus is the Lord, is God in human flesh

It's no small matter to bear false witness against God. Thank you for confirming you are a false prophet, at least, as it gives us a heads up about who to beware of. However, it's pardonable.

2 Peter 1
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. 3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.

 

[mikesw]

It's no small matter to bear false witness against God. Thank you for confirming you are a false prophet, at least, as it gives us a heads up about who to beware of. However, it's pardonable.

2 Peter 1
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. 3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.

You need to relax some. You have been trying too hard to swim upstream and now are taking your aggression on people here.

 

[Capbook]

Now you seem to be connecting the dots. The Father is that Holy Spirit. It is not to say that 1 John 1:9 nullifies what Jesus says. Three persons co-equal with one God is not compatible with your theory that blasphemy against one of them can be forgiven, while blasphemy against the other cannot be forgiven, and then the other is going around the others and forgiving everything.

All are written in the Bible Runningman, you now seems to deny what the Bible said.

I'll try to illustrate to give us an idea what "three persons co-equal with one God" as you state Runningman.
1. The Father as the mind and heart (Who planned) (John 3:16)
2. Jesus as the Word. (John 1:1)
3. The Holy Spirit is the one in action here on earth, guide us to the truth. (John 16:13)

Runningman as one individual had;
1. Mind and heart,
2. Can utter word,
3. Can make action,
One being Runningman have all those three but He is only one person, with emotion, will and thought.

The only difference with the Trinity is;
1. The Father as the mind and heart had emotion, will and thought,
2. Jesus as the Word had emotion, will and thought,
3. The Holy Spirit in action also had emotion, will and thought.
That's one God, or one in the nature of God in three persons, as the three possess emotion, will and thought.

 

[Victoria]

The Holy Spirit revealed to me Jesus is the Lord, is God in human flesh

This is scriptural, @Runningman

"...and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

[Runningman]

You need to relax some. You have been trying too hard to swim upstream and now are taking your aggression on people here.

What I have learned about you is that everyone has a problem except you. I think for the betterment of this board, it's time to stop feeding into your negativity. Scripture is apparently a hostile stumbling block to you and you're still on record suggesting Jesus is a sinner for having been tempted, never having recanted. I'll give you a week and see if you change your tune. Take care Mike.

 

[Runningman]

All are written in the Bible Runningman, you now seems to deny what the Bible said.

I'll try to illustrate to give us an idea what "three persons co-equal with one God" as you state Runningman.
1. The Father as the mind and heart (Who planned) (John 3:16)
2. Jesus as the Word. (John 1:1)
3. The Holy Spirit is the one in action here on earth, guide us to the truth. (John 16:13)

Runningman as one individual had;
1. Mind and heart,
2. Can utter word,
3. Can make action,
One being Runningman have all those three but He is only one person, with emotion, will and thought.

The only difference with the Trinity is;
1. The Father as the mind and heart had emotion, will and thought,
2. Jesus as the Word had emotion, will and thought,
3. The Holy Spirit in action also had emotion, will and thought.
That's one God, or one in the nature of God in three persons, as the three possess emotion, will and thought.

In your interpretation, there are three persons who are God. Let's lay it all out to see if I got you right.

1. Jesus is God and you can blaspheme him and be forgiven (Matthew 12:32,33)
2. The Holy Spirit is God, but you can't blaspheme Him and be forgiven (Matthew 12:32,33)
3. The Father doesn't even get mentioned, but He is going around forgiving everyone anyway while other one won't give forgiveness (Matthew 12:32,33, 1 John 1:9)

Your god is inconsistent, contradictory, divided: a god of confusion and mayhem.

To recap, you've been shown clearly how the Father is that Holy Spirit (John 4:23,24) is the only true God (John 17:1-3) is defined by the Shema (1 Corinthians 8:4-6) so your interpretations, frankly do not make any sense. Any reason why you don't believe the Father is God, holy, and Spirit as the Bible says?

 

[mikesw]

What I have learned about you is that everyone has a problem except you. I think for the betterment of this board, it's time to stop feeding into your negativity. Scripture is apparently a hostile stumbling block to you and you're still on record suggesting Jesus is a sinner for having been tempted, never having recanted. I'll give you a week and see if you change your tune. Take care Mike.

Haha. Really? So my acceptance of the same truth as all Christians is how everyone has a problem but me. That is ludicrous, unfounded, and desperate on your part. Then you mindset is to interpret my expression of the outcome of your view as if it were my doctrine. Indeed the pressure of redefining scripture on your part is straining you too far.