Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[praise_yeshua]

Almighty God had to be Triune in order to know and experience what love really means?

No. This life we live (experience) is designed to reveal God to us. You have it the wrong way.

You don't understand your experience here in this life, because you're a Unitarian that doesn't understand what a perfect relationship requires in love.

Most people marry for all the wrong reasons. They say they love one another when they're too young or experienced to even know what deep and meaningful love truly is. It the bond of perfection. It more important than actually being right.

You can't know love at most any level without experiencing it first. You must be loved to be able to love.

 

[Studyman]

So the Father killed His Son?

Did you read what you wrote? There is no need for humbling within the relationship between the Father and Son. You need to correct what you said.

Matt. 26: 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Please don't continue to demean and belittle the Faith and commitment Jesus had for His Father. Jesus knew He would be killed, and HE offered Himself to God anyway. What demented spirit would twist these Words of Jesus into "So the Father Killed the Son"?

Dan. 3: 16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

This is the Faith of Jesus that you and Civic preach to the world Jesus didn't have. Because you have adopted the Philosophy that Jesus didn't live by the Faith HE required of all other humans. Rather, HE reserved unto Himself God Powers that HE withheld from all other humans and overcame in this world, not by Faith, but by those Powers He wouldn't allow anyone else to have. Then when HE overcame sin and temptation and was murdered, men preach HE raised Himself from pretending to be dead, (God can't die) then HE Glorified Himself and gave Himself a Name above all other humans. In other worlds, Jesus placed the burden of Faith on Shadrack, Abraham, David and Paul, He Himself wouldn't lift Faith with one finger.

I don't believe this represents the Jesus "of the Bible" based on what is actually written in scriptures.

 

[amazing grace]

Exactly it’s called narcissism

In narcissism someone has an excessive interest in or admiration of themself ----- so the love known or experienced by a Triune God would be narcissistic in nature - God loving the other three persons would basically be an excessive amount of loving himself for they are all ONE GOD, right?

 

[JesusFan]

Almighty God had to be Triune in order to know and experience what love really means?

Yes, in order to understand it in truth and by relationship, not by just "head knowledge"

 

[praise_yeshua]

Matt. 26: 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Please don't continue to demean and belittle the Faith and commitment Jesus had for His Father. Jesus knew He would be killed, and HE offered Himself to God anyway. What demented spirit would twist these Words of Jesus into "So the Father Killed the Son"?

Belittle.... Do tell. How did I belittle that relationship. Please elaborate in great detail.

You're the one that said that Christ submitted to the Father in death. That is what you said. Live with your choice. I mean you don't really love Jesus Christ. You can't. You can't talk about the relationship the Father has with the Son the way you do and actually love the Son. You can't. You're demeaning that relationship by insisting that Christ had a contrary will to the Father.

So much for "perfect love"......

Do you remember that part about love that "seeks not her own"? YOU might want to read that part again. Better yet, LIVE it.

Maybe treat your wife as you really understand it.

There is no perfection in love with two wills contrary to one another.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In narcissism someone has an excessive interest in or admiration of themself ----- so the love known or experienced by a Triune God would be narcissistic in nature - God loving the other three persons would basically be an excessive amount of loving himself for they are all ONE GOD, right?

Geesh. Spoken like a true Narcissist.

When you have perfection among 3 Persons, there is nothing "excessive". All equal.

 

[civic]

Geesh. Spoken like a true Narcissist.

When you have perfection among 3 Persons, there is nothing "excessive". All equal.

yep

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, in order to understand it in truth and by relationship, not by just "head knowledge"

They don't understand because they are too self centered themselves. Human beings are that way. I fight it too.

Even when they do something for someone else, they're actually doing it for themselves. You find it all the time in what people call "Charity" today.

The powerful with infinite wealth, don't mind giving some of it away.... if it makes them feel better about themselves and they get "praise for it".

That is how men project their own understandings upon God.

It is why when they see God, they see Him in their own desires and experiences.

It is the very reason Christ hide himself from those like this when He became flesh among humanity. It is why he embraced the poor and needy.

 

[amazing grace]

This would be much easier if we were actually talking to one another. Reminder. This is a open forum. You're not having private conversations. I can read. You don't get to tell me/insist I can't understand what you're saying because you're talking to someone else. I can read what you said. You are being dishonest in insisting I don't understand you. I gave the same response back to you because you needed to see what you're doing to me. You're continuing to do this.

I don't care that you responded to me at all. I was pointing out the fact the you keep changing the subject.
I believe ONE TIME I mentioned: Apparently you didn't read what I said or you didn't understand what I said:
So, I wouldn't call that 'insisting you can't understand what I am saying' and it had nothing to do with whom I was speaking.

You don't own this conversation. I'm not responding directly to every single little "thought" you're presenting. If we were talking to one another, I'd point out every single problem you have. When I said "I wouldn't change Him". I wasn't implying you actually said that very thing. YOUR position does just that. You don't have to say it. What you have already said requires it.

I said something about changing the subject and you came back with: The subject is Jesus Christ. I wouldn't change Him.
And I just want to know what indication in my position did I infer that you would change Him?

Now take what I just said and apply it .... MOVING FORWARD. Don't pretend I didn't say what I just said and continue to insist I "don't understand you" or "I'm changing the subject".This is about Jesus Christ. Which is a very large subject. This is your last warning from me. I don't have to talk to you and by your own standard, you should be talking to your husband. Not me. So. Physician. Heal thyself. If you don't know what that means, you shouldn't be debating anything. This is debate. Not a training session. YOU are trying to teach others. If you want to learn something, then ask.

All of this, all of this back and forth originated from the post in which I quoted 1 Cor. 11:3.......delving into the subject of ONE FLESH, the subject of husband/wife/children relationships, the subject of Jesus being highly exalted, an heir, given a name that is above all names, to what is eternal and wha and that, to me, is jumping around from subject to subject I don't know what is.

Right, you sure don't have to talk to me.

My husband knows that I am on here.

Think for a moment. Is heaven coequal with God or did God make heaven? Is heaven Eternal, without beginning or end? There are multiple heavens. I'm sure you don't know this.

Is a place where God dwells co-equal with God? I know of this reference: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
But like Paul, I do not know, God knows.

We were talking about children. Jesus Christ was a child. I used an example. It doesn't matter what you said or didn't say. You were treating Jesus Christ as a child when Christ is Eternal. The "Eternal" stepped into humanity. You Unitarians have ZERO idea of how to actually deal with the very essence of who Jesus Christ is. ZERO.

You treat Jesus like Christ is one of your own children. That is why I started referencing children.

We were talking about children but I didn't mention Jesus as a child. Yes, YOU USED THE EXAMPLE. It does matter what I said or what I didn't say ----
The risen human Messiah is NOW eternal being given eternal life from God his Father.
No, the 'eternal' did not step into humanity.
Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, God's Christ.

Let me ask you, If Jesus isn't your son, then what right do you have yourself to speak of Him the way you speak of Him?

I'll wait. Get your husband to help you.

When you post where I have spoken about Jesus in an unseemly manner or against scripture then maybe I will be able to answer your question.

 

[Studyman]

Belittle.... Do tell. How did I belittle that relationship. Please elaborate in great detail.

You're the one that said that Christ submitted to the Father in death. That is what you said. Live with your choice.

Actually I posted the Scripture and it says, "Obedient "unto" death." Try and at last be honest.

I mean you don't really love Jesus Christ. You can't. You can't talk about the relationship the Father has with the Son the way you do and actually love the Son. You can't. You're demeaning that relationship by insisting that Christ had a contrary will to the Father.

Well, what Jesus Himself actually said, "I came not to do "My Will", but the Will of Him who sent me.

You are free to belittle, demean and mock the Jesus of the Bible, by implying that HE didn't have a Will after HE told you He did.

This is why I stay away from the religions of this world you have adopted. Honesty is forbidden in it.

Do you remember that part about love that "seeks not her own"? YOU might want to read that part again. Better yet, LIVE it.

Thanks for another spirit filled encouragement.

Maybe treat your wife as you really understand it.

There is no perfection in love with two wills contrary to one another.

Wow, I there wasn't two wills, one contrary to each other, there would be no need to repent, to "Deny oneself", Humble oneself, submit oneself. Perfection is choosing God's Will over our own, like Jesus did. But one must first believe Him to accept His Words.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't care that you responded to me at all. I was pointing out the fact the you keep changing the subject.
I believe ONE TIME I mentioned: Apparently you didn't read what I said or you didn't understand what I said:
So, I wouldn't call that 'insisting you can't understand what I am saying' and it had nothing to do with whom I was speaking.

I said something about changing the subject and you came back with: The subject is Jesus Christ. I wouldn't change Him.
And I just want to know what indication in my position did I infer that you would change Him?

Petty. Repeating what you have already said while not actually dealing with what I've said is nothing more than a tactic. A tactic usually intended to discourage your debate opponent.

I explained why I responded the way I did. I usually stop talking when people respond the way you're doing. I believe God does mankind this way. The reason people can't hear God is they're not listening and God has decided to be silent until they do. (not that I'm God, just trying to emulating Him.)

I'm going to try one more time. If all you're going to do is be petty enough to say "quote me" or "I didn't say that" or "I was talking to someone else".... then I'll just leave you alone.

One last reminder, you're a Unitarian. I already know what you believe. I can read your conversations here in this forum. I can respond or not respond to anything you say or don't explicitly say.... because I know your theology.

Not going to mention it again.

All of this, all of this back and forth originated from the post in which I quoted 1 Cor. 11:3.......delving into the subject of ONE FLESH, the subject of husband/wife/children relationships, the subject of Jesus being highly exalted, an heir, given a name that is above all names, to what is eternal and wha and that, to me, is jumping around from subject to subject I don't know what is.

Do you know the English word "relative"? It is all relative at some level another. It is not a different SUBJECT. Hence, the subject is Jesus Christ.

Right, you sure don't have to talk to me.

Someone should. Hence, your husband. You're untrained and certainly not qualified. By your own standard, you should let your husband speak for you. He is your "head" right? I prefer to talk to the important people.

Example. I pray to Jesus. He is important. I'm certain you think that is rather stupid (my word). Such beliefs that you hold offends my sensibilities, It offends my relationship to this "Son" you don't speak for. Do you matter??.... I could say no here, but I don't actually believe that. Your a daughter of Adam and Eve. A descendent of those that love you. I'm the same. We are equals in this, but we aren't at the same level of understanding. The problem is, you think you are. If you're arguing with the intent to learn, you can change. If you're arguing with the intent to disciple, then you need to stop.

My husband knows that I am on here.

I prefer to talk to the boss. Are you more talented than him when it comes to theology?

Is a place where God dwells co-equal with God? I know of this reference: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
But like Paul, I do not know, God knows.

It was a comparison. I "alluded" to someone.

We were talking about children but I didn't mention Jesus as a child. Yes, YOU USED THE EXAMPLE. It does matter what I said or what I didn't say ----

The connection was Jesus was a child.

The risen human Messiah is NOW eternal being given eternal life from God his Father.

Damnable heresy.

So what verse details the Father granting Jesus Christ Eternal life?

No, the 'eternal' did not step into humanity.
Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, God's Christ.

"Jewish"? Do I need to ask to speak to your Rabbi? Again. I prefer to speak with the boss. It is why I bypass man and go straight to Jesus?

Jesus said he was before Abraham. Does your Husband/Rabbi need to take this one?

It is odd that you have the handle of "amazing_grace" yet, have such a poor appreciation of Jesus Christ. Has Jesus shown you Grace? or was that the Father? Please explain.

When you post where I have spoken about Jesus in an unseemly manner or against scripture then maybe I will be able to answer your question.

You treat the character of the Son distinctly different than the character of the Father. I don't. I believe when I've "seen" the Son, "I've seen the Father".

When you see your son, do you see his father?

 

[Runningman]

You Unitarians endless conflate distinct aspects of human existence with one another. Over and over again.

That verse doesn't present what you just said. For it to present what you just said, then it would require the Father to actually kill the Son.

Get it? Humbling and becoming "OBEDIENT" to death.

No it doesn't require God killing Jesus. It just requires Jesus obeying what God told him to do. However, if Jesus is God that would require God killing himself. Do you believe God committed the sin of suicide?

The only sane explanation is that Jesus humbled himself, when he could have went a different route, and obeyed the set plan and foreknowledge of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Actually I posted the Scripture and it says, "Obedient "unto" death." Try and at last be honest.

I read it. They way you apply it is rather crazy. I expressed that. Did you read it?

Well, what Jesus Himself actually said, "I came not to do "My Will", but the Will of Him who sent me.

That doesn't actually indicate a distinctly contrary will. If your wife said that "I'm here to do the will of my husband", then I would agree. She really doesn't want to "obey" you. She can't given how you treat here.

Now, when Jesus said that, he wasn't expressing a contrary will. He was associating HIS WILL, with the WILL OF THE FATHER.

I was perfect agreement. You can't understand that because of your own experience. You've got different "man" than God has it. He is better than you. He is of a Greater sort. Not the sort you're like.

You are free to belittle, demean and mock the Jesus of the Bible, by implying that HE didn't have a Will after HE told you He did.

I never said that he didn't have his own will. His will was identical to the Father's will. That is what I said. Pay attention. It was HIS WILL, nonetheless.

That is what you get when you have perfect love. YOU don't have that. Get it? You're not like THEM. THEY (Father and Son) have a better relationship then YOU do with your wife or whomever else you claim "intimacy" with. So don't project your sensibilities upon God.

This is why I stay away from the religions of this world you have adopted. Honesty is forbidden in it.

You're not honest. You have no integrity.

Thanks for another spirit filled encouragement.

I'm glad you're offended. Do you remember Jesus saying that "offenses must come". That father, wives, sons and daughters when be separated? Congratulation on living "your dream".

Wow, I there wasn't two wills, one contrary to each other, there would be no need to repent, to "Deny oneself", Humble oneself, submit oneself. Perfection is choosing God's Will over our own, like Jesus did. But one must first believe Him to accept His Words.

Jesus repented? Wow. Where?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No it doesn't require God killing Jesus. It just requires Jesus obeying what God told him to do. However, if Jesus is God that would require God killing himself. Do you believe God committed the sin of suicide?

Nope. He gave up his life to mankind. He allowed other men to murder Him. That isn't suicide. He did it for us. Not Himself.

Except a blade of grass fall to the ground and perish. It abides ALONE.

You don't need to fight this brother.

The only sane explanation is that Jesus humbled himself, when he could have went a different route, and obeyed the set plan and foreknowledge of God.

Not really. There are several more. We can talk about them.

Humility to you is different than to God. You're sinful. Christ wasn't. He was Impeccable. There is another Trinitarian doctrine.

We can discuss. It is a good subject to learn. You need to learn it.

 

[Runningman]

You Unitarians endless conflate distinct aspects of human existence with one another. Over and over again.

That verse doesn't present what you just said. For it to present what you just said, then it would require the Father to actually kill the Son.

Get it? Humbling and becoming "OBEDIENT" to death.

Means he became obedient until he died. He didn't literally obey death. He obeyed (God) until he was dead on the cross.

Here's the literal version.

Philippians 2
8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Means he became obedient until he died. He didn't literally obey death. He obeyed (God) until he was dead on the cross.

Here's the literal version.

Philippians 2
8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Okay. Lets say that is what it says. I don't know how that changes anything I said.

Will you obey death in the same manner? Will you unwillingly obey death one day?

His obedience was for you.

 

[amazing grace]

The fruit of the womb belongs to who?

If you're "One", then why do you still refer to one another as "husband and wife"?

<snip> I said: "Our adult children are no longer under our discipline or supervision and we treat them as the adults they are........" They are NOT ME, they are their own individuals. They may have some of my characteristics through their relationship with me BUT THEY ARE in no way ME. <snip>

<snip> So they didn't become "ONE FLESH" through the union of your seed and the seed of your husband. <snip>

<snip> Are you talking about my children in the bolded statement? Do you mean human beings? One flesh refers to the union, the intimate union between husband and wife. <snip>

The fruit of the womb belongs to who?

If you're "One", then why do you still refer to one another as "husband and wife"?

I have gone back through the conversation leading to the first question and honestly, I have no idea how to answer nor do I see any relevance to that first question.

We are 'one' in unity and purpose in raising our children, in building our household, in our intimate relationship but we are still TWO human beings, a husband and a wife, a male and a female ---- that's why.

Then is BOTH. Just like I said. Thanks for confirming. Apply this to the relationship between the Father and the Son. There is an intimacy that exists between the Father and Son where they are ONE. Yet, separate "Persons". See. You can understand it if you really think about what you experience yourself. At least, you have a "taste" of it. You don't completely understand ever how you might insist you do. I mean you are talking about two individuals that have a relationship. Who are you to intrude in that relationship? You don't speak for them.

Jesus and his Father are one - one in unity and purpose in their restoration of creation, the reconciling of humanity, the redemption and salvation of humanity. Yes, they are separate persons ---- One is the only true God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and one is the Son of God, the Messiah, God's Christ.

I do not speak for them the scriptures speak for them.

Not in the sense Christ did. However, I wouldn't say that the Father didn't take upon Himself a form of dust and ashes. I don't know personally. I'm not Eternal. Is anything too hard for God?

Since the scripture does not say that the Father took upon himself a form of dust and ashes ---- nope, can't assume, infer, nor hint at that but Jesus Christ was born flesh.

That glory was never lost. It just wasn't complete. Adam wasn't finished product. Neither was Eve. You can't understand Eve with the theology you have. You can't. It is impossible. You can't understand that what Adam did, He did because of his love for Eve. A gift from God. This life is all about relationships and how we choose to express and live them.

If Adam had not disobeyed God, he would have been the finished product. Adam was standing with Eve during that temptation, she was the one deceived but he was right there with her and should have stood up to her --- God should have come first.
.......and we are back to 1 Cor. 11:3 - the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. If my husband comes to me and wants me to do something which is against the law --- I do not have to submit in this situation.

What you've been taught doesn't actually impart to you the full sense of love written in the heart of Adam. It can't. I feel sorry for your experience. I've been hard on you but you're the one insisting you know all of this already. The best thing you can do is to admit you're wrong and to change. Your choice. You need to hear it.

Are you saying Adam disobeyed God because of love? I don't believe disobedience of any kind is a reflection of God's love.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Yeah. Like your husband is the head of you. I'm not moving the goalpost at all.

Christ came to free us from the requirements of others. You're living under requirements that make you nothing more than a servant. Jesus had friends. You don't know what it is to live your own life that is in perfect harmony with another. Tell me. What is different about a friend that you don't get from your husband? If your husband is your friend, then how does that add to your relationship.

You don't know me or my life.......

My husband is my best friend. My husband knows the good, the bad, the ugly about me as I do him and we still love one another. We try to exhibit God's grace towards one another and no one rules over another. If there are any major decisions to be made we sit down together and discuss --- if we cannot both come to the same conclusion then I will submit to his decision. It has worked for us --- it is scriptural.