The Trinity and the Incarnation

[amazing grace]

Last try and I am not going to highlight or change a word because you wont believe it anyway.

I have so many references and you believe nothing. You admit the Word had to have been in existence before Jesus was conceived so that the Word would become flesh.

So now I found this for you.....

Who Was the Word in His Preexistent State?​

According to the New Testament—especially the Gospel of John—the Word refers to Jesus Christ in His eternal, divine existence before becoming human.

1. The Word Was God​

• “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

This means:

• He existed before creation.
• He coexisted with God the Father.
• He shared the divine nature—He was God.

2. The Word Was the Agent of Creation​

• “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3) The Word wasn’t just present—He was the active Creator.

3. The Word Was Eternal Life and Light

• “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” (John 1:4)

He was the source of:

• Life
• Light
• Truth

Before anything existed, the Word already possessed these qualities.

---

What Was He Doing in His Preexistent State?

Scripture describes several active roles of the Word before becoming flesh:

---

1. Creating and Sustaining the Universe​

• “All things were made through Him…” (John 1:3)
• “In Him all things hold together.” (Colossians 1:17)

He:

• Created all things
• Sustains all things
• Upholds the order of the universe

---

2. Revealing God’s Character​

The Word is the perfect expression of God:

• “No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son…He has made Him known.” (John 1:18)

Even before the incarnation, the Word served as the self-expression of God, revealing His will and nature.

---

3. Existing in Glory With the Father​

• “Father, glorify Me…with the glory I had with You before the world existed.” (John 17:5)

He shared divine glory in eternal communion with the Father.

---

4. Acting as the Divine Word/Wisdom​

This connects to the Old Testament theme of God’s Word and Wisdom:

• God’s Word that creates (Genesis 1)
• God’s Wisdom present with Him before creation (Proverbs 8)

This supports the idea that the Word was actively involved in God’s purposes from eternity.

---

Summary​

Who was the Word?

• Eternal
• Divine
• With God
• Creator
• Life and Light

What was He doing?

• Creating the world
• Sustaining the universe
• Revealing God
• Sharing eternal glory with the Father

Thanks. It's sad that you cannot express your belief in your own words.
There is only one section in all the above that I would agree with:

Revealing God’s Character​

The Word is the perfect expression of God:

• “No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son…He has made Him known.” (John 1:18)

Even before the incarnation, the Word served as the self-expression of God, revealing His will and nature.

That is exactly what John 1:1c is saying . . . and when the word became flesh, the begotten human Son - Jesus has made him known NOT because he was God himself but because he was the full expression of God, his character fully expressed who God was.

 

[amazing grace]

there are many times it was not an angel of the Lord. So who walked with adam in the garden ?

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Scripture doesn't say . . . it only says Adam and Eve heard the voice of God walking in the garden ---- so was Adam and Eve walking in the garden and while walking they heard the voice of God or was God literally walking in the garden?

Right, I don't believe in this instance it was an angel yet I also don't believe it was God walking in the garden.

 

[civic]

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Scripture doesn't say . . . it only says Adam and Eve heard the voice of God walking in the garden ---- so was Adam and Eve walking in the garden and while walking they heard the voice of God or was God literally walking in the garden?

Right, I don't believe in this instance it was an angel yet I also don't believe it was God walking in the garden.

Yout translation is not accurate, these below are. They heard God walking in the garden.

Hearing God speak is different than hearing God walking.

New King James Version
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

New American Standard Bible
Now they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

New International Version
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

English Standard Version
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

International Standard Version
When they heard the voice of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden during the breeze of the day, the man and his wife concealed themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Literal Standard Version
And they hear the sound of YHWH God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of YHWH God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Young's Literal Translation
And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

NET Bible
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the orchard at the breezy time of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the orchard.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God is the Holy Spirit who is our Father and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is also the power of the Most High. (Luke 1:35) God is Spirit and has never been anything but a spirit being.

The 'word' became flesh . . . the 'word' which was fully expressive of God became a human being. Thus Jesus was the full expression of God which makes perfect sense since Jesus came to make known God the Father.
God is still Spirit ---- God is not a man, never has been a man and will never be a man.

God wanted the 'word' to become his mortal Son??? God wanted his spoken word which He spoke in the beginning to become a mortal Son????? OOPS, I see your mouth falling open in utter amazement! I know mine did when I read the way your mind reasons this Triune God business. Do you even hear yourself?

God used his power - his spirit to bring about the conception of his human Son. Or else Jesus would have been called the Son of the Holy Spirit instead of the Son of God.

So, you're saying that Jesus was a spirit being . . . Why does Paul through inspiration when teaching about the resurrection and the resurrected body say . . . . . . But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual?

Twisted........

 

[FreeInChrist]

Thanks. It's sad that you cannot express your belief in your own words.
There is only one section in all the above that I would agree with:

Revealing God’s Character​

The Word is the perfect expression of God:

• “No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son…He has made Him known.” (John 1:18)

Even before the incarnation, the Word served as the self-expression of God, revealing His will and nature.

That is exactly what John 1:1c is saying . . . and when the word became flesh, the begotten human Son - Jesus has made him known NOT because he was God himself but because he was the full expression of God, his character fully expressed who God was.

I am not the idiot you think I am. I have posted my own words so much that my fingers are sore....

You wont believe me.... So I found a different source that says what I post yet differently.

You dont believe them.... No surprise.... They do use some of those 50 cent words.

 

[amazing grace]

Yout translation is not accurate, these below are. They heard God walking in the garden.

Hearing God speak is different than hearing God walking.

New King James Version
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

New American Standard Bible
Now they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

New International Version
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

English Standard Version
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

International Standard Version
When they heard the voice of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden during the breeze of the day, the man and his wife concealed themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

Literal Standard Version
And they hear the sound of YHWH God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of YHWH God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Young's Literal Translation
And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

NET Bible
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the orchard at the breezy time of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the orchard.

OK . . . I happened to use the KJV . . . so they heard God walking in the garden . . . . And your point?

 

[amazing grace]

Twisted........

What's twisted? I hate when someone makes an accusation and doesn't back it up.

 

[amazing grace]

View attachment 2620View attachment 2621View attachment 2622View attachment 2623

I am not the idiot you think I am. I have posted my own words so much that my fingers are sore....

You wont believe me.... So I found a different source that says what I post yet differently.

You dont believe them.... No surprise.... They do use some of those 50 cent words.

No, I do not think you are an idiot at all. Never meant to imply that. And of course, I will argue your points because I am not a Trinitarian and I don't believe the doctrine makes any sense at all nor does it line up with what Scripture tells us about God and his Son.
Come on ---- give me credit! I did agree with one of the paragraphs within that source.

Again with the ignoring of questions: . . .So, you're saying that Jesus was a spirit being . . . Why does Paul through inspiration when teaching about the resurrection and the resurrected body say . . . . . . But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual? What do you think that means?

 

[synergy]

That's not what I said.

Now you see how silly it is to bring in and promote secular concepts like agencies and power of attorneys.

Please elaborate on what your saying here.

Instead of agency, which I cannot locate anywhere in the Bible (maybe you can), Scripture makes use of the word εἰκών. That's the relationship between the Father and the Word who was God (John 1:1c) and who tabernacled as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14).

εἰκών is mentioned in the Bible. For example, Jesus Christ is The Icon (εἰκών) of the Invisible God (the Father), the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15). He is the Exact Imprint of God's Nature (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus Christ is the perfect and full manifestation of God, being by nature and by person God himself (John 1:1c). In Him, as God, the Uncreated enters into the created, and through His human body and life, the eternal God is revealed in Jesus. In his tabernacling as Jesus (John 1:14), Spirit and matter was united without confusion, the Eternal Word taking on flesh.

In fact, as believers we are all predestined to be conformed to be icons εἰκών of Jesus (Romans 8:29). As Jesus is The Icon of the Father, in simewhat similar manner we are predestined to be icons of Christ.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God is the Holy Spirit who is our Father and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is also the power of the Most High. (Luke 1:35) God is Spirit and has never been anything but a spirit being.

The 'word' became flesh . . . the 'word' which was fully expressive of God became a human being. Thus Jesus was the full expression of God which makes perfect sense since Jesus came to make known God the Father.
God is still Spirit ---- God is not a man, never has been a man and will never be a man.

God wanted the 'word' to become his mortal Son??? God wanted his spoken word which He spoke in the beginning to become a mortal Son????? OOPS, I see your mouth falling open in utter amazement! I know mine did when I read the way your mind reasons this Triune God business. Do you even hear yourself?

The Word became flesh. You do understand that the flesh the word became was called Jesus?

Do you think that knowing there had to be a blood sacrifice of significance to be the atonement for those who would be saved...
it simply could not have been a ram or a sheep because those were for a limited time..... is that not so....
so Joseph was told in a dream that Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

20And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,

and

23‘Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,’ which is, being interpreted ‘With us [he is] God.’ ( Does this verse from the bible of what the messenger of God told Joseph in a dream mean anything to you?)
25and did not know her till she brought forth her son — the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
LUKE: And the Messenger from God, named Gabriel spoke to Mary . We know it was Gabriel because he identified
himself to Zacharias.
And the messenger said to her, ‘Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; 31and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;

So we know that this baby born was born as Jesus as God commanded.

We know that John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
So the Word was born and was named Jesus.

The spirit being that was the Word, who lived with the Father who also is a spirit being, became flesh and when this man he became was resurrected and appeared to the diciples... He even walked through a closed door.

I doubt that any mortal could do that except the one who was a spirit being at that point at least.

During the time on earth Phil 2:7 tells us...7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

Now I ask you.... based on your study of the scripture if Philippians 2:7 YLT says in the likeness of men having been made,
what was He before he was made in the likeness of men???? other then the spirit being the Word?

God used his power - his spirit to bring about the conception of his human Son. Or else Jesus would have been called the Son of the Holy Spirit instead of the Son of God.

So, you're saying that Jesus was a spirit being . . . Why does Paul through inspiration when teaching about the resurrection and the resurrected body say . . . . . . But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual?

Was Paul not talking about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?

All Paul knew... All anyone knew was that the baby was born and grew into a man...that is the natural

Then the man was crucified and resurrected.... enter the spiritual, especially when he walked through a door.

 

[amazing grace]

Now you see how silly it is to bring in and promote secular concepts like agencies and power of attorneys.

the Jewish Law of Agency is not a secular concept . . . it is a real Jewish concept --- an agent or representative speaks and acts on full behalf of the one who sent him. The concept is the principal sending an agent to act on their behalf - the principal is the sender and the agent is the one sent acting on behalf of the sender. .... (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b). Jewish Encyclopedia
shalach: sent, send, sending Strong's Hebrew 7917 Original Word: שָׁלַח Part of Speech: Verb; Transliteration: shalach Pronunciation: shah-lakh' Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-lakh') KJV: X any wise, appoint, bring (on the way), cast (away, out), conduct, X earnestly, forsake, give (up), grow long, lay, leave, let depart (down, go, loose), push away, put (away, forth, in, out), reach forth, send (away, forth, out), set, shoot (forth, out), sow, spread, stretch forth (out)

Instead of agency, which I cannot locate anywhere in the Bible (maybe you can), Scripture makes use of the word εἰκών.
That's the relationship between the Father and the Word who was God (John 1:1c) and who tabernacled as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14).

εἰκών is mentioned in the Bible. For example, Jesus Christ is The Icon (εἰκών) of the Invisible God (the Father), the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15). He is the Exact Imprint of God's Nature (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus Christ is the perfect and full manifestation of God, being by nature and by person God himself (John 1:1c). In Him, as God, the Uncreated enters into the created, and through His human body and life, the eternal God is revealed in Jesus. In his tabernacling as Jesus (John 1:14), Spirit and matter was united without confusion, the Eternal Word taking on flesh.

In fact, as believers we are all predestined to be conformed to be icons εἰκών of Jesus (Romans 8:29). As Jesus is The Icon of the Father, in simewhat similar manner we are predestined to be icons of Christ.

 

[synergy]

the Jewish Law of Agency is not a secular concept . . . it is a real Jewish concept --- an agent or representative speaks and acts on full behalf of the one who sent him. The concept is the principal sending an agent to act on their behalf - the principal is the sender and the agent is the one sent acting on behalf of the sender. .... (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b). Jewish Encyclopedia
shalach: sent, send, sending Strong's Hebrew 7917 Original Word: שָׁלַח Part of Speech: Verb; Transliteration: shalach Pronunciation: shah-lakh' Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-lakh') KJV: X any wise, appoint, bring (on the way), cast (away, out), conduct, X earnestly, forsake, give (up), grow long, lay, leave, let depart (down, go, loose), push away, put (away, forth, in, out), reach forth, send (away, forth, out), set, shoot (forth, out), sow, spread, stretch forth (out)

Sorry, I'm not Jewish. I had several Jewish friends (mainly from Morocco) growing up but I was never introduced to Jewish customs. The only connection I have with Jews is the OT. So please tell me where "agency" or "agents" is mentioned in the OT (or even the NT) so that I can get a grasp of this Jewish Agency custom you say is not secular.

 

[amazing grace]

The Word became flesh. You do understand that the flesh the word became was called Jesus?

Yes. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14
The Word being the perfect expression of God became flesh - the only begotten of the Father which was Jesus.

Do you think that knowing there had to be a blood sacrifice of significance to be the atonement for those who would be saved...
it simply could not have been a ram or a sheep because those were for a limited time..... is that not so....

Right, it had to be a mortal being, not simply a ram or a sheep, but a human mortal being to make atonement for all humanity.

so Joseph was told in a dream that Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

20And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,

and

23‘Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,’ which is, being interpreted ‘With us [he is] God.’ ( Does this verse from the bible of what the messenger of God told Joseph in a dream mean anything to you?)

25and did not know her till she brought forth her son — the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Yep, this is the record from Matthew. . . they shall call his name Emmanuel which means God with us or God is with us.
NOPE - I don't know what translation you are using but the text does not say 'With us [he is] God' . . . never mind I see it - the only one with that translation! the YLT. . . . (out of approximately 63 different translations and you picked that one . . .hmmm)

LUKE: And the Messenger from God, named Gabriel spoke to Mary . We know it was Gabriel because he identified
himself to Zacharias.
And the messenger said to her, ‘Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; 31and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;

Yes, And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. . . . And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. . . . and Jesus is the name he actually went by.

So we know that this baby born was born as Jesus as God commanded.

Yes.

We know that John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
So the Word was born and was named Jesus.

We know that the 'word' became flesh, became a human being and we know HOW. So, a child, the only Son from the Father was born whose name was Jesus.

The spirit being that was the Word, who lived with the Father who also is a spirit being, became flesh and when this man he became was resurrected and appeared to the diciples... He even walked through a closed door.

I doubt that any mortal could do that except the one who was a spirit being at that point at least.

Now you have lost me . . . What spirit being was the Word? John 1:1 does not say that the 'spirit was the word'. No one lived with God aka the Father. (except other created spiritual beings, i.e. angels)
Yes, when Jesus was resurrected he was in his 'spiritual body' and yes, he walked through a closed door. Yes, he became a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

During the time on earth Phil 2:7 tells us...7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

Now I ask you.... based on your study of the scripture if Philippians 2:7 YLT says in the likeness of men having been made,
what was He before he was made in the likeness of men???? other then the spirit being the Word?

I don't know of any reference of the 'spirit being the Word'.
It's about attitude - having an attitude of humbleness CONTEXT. Jesus emptied himself of his reputation as King of the Jews, as the Son of God, the Messiah . . . he relinquished his royal and priestly prerogatives and status and held the attitude of a servant. . Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Was Paul not talking about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?

All Paul knew... All anyone knew was that the baby was born and grew into a man...that is the natural

Then the man was crucified and resurrected.... enter the spiritual, especially when he walked through a door.

In Corinthians 15 Paul teaches about the resurrection. Yes, the spiritual came AFTER Jesus was resurrected.
BUT didn't you say Jesus was spiritual first as the 'Word'?

The spirit being that was the Word, who lived with the Father who also is a spirit being, became flesh and when this man he became was resurrected and appeared to the diciples... He even walked through a closed door.

 

[civic]

the Jewish Law of Agency is not a secular concept . . . it is a real Jewish concept --- an agent or representative speaks and acts on full behalf of the one who sent him. The concept is the principal sending an agent to act on their behalf - the principal is the sender and the agent is the one sent acting on behalf of the sender. .... (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b). Jewish Encyclopedia
shalach: sent, send, sending Strong's Hebrew 7917 Original Word: שָׁלַח Part of Speech: Verb; Transliteration: shalach Pronunciation: shah-lakh' Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-lakh') KJV: X any wise, appoint, bring (on the way), cast (away, out), conduct, X earnestly, forsake, give (up), grow long, lay, leave, let depart (down, go, loose), push away, put (away, forth, in, out), reach forth, send (away, forth, out), set, shoot (forth, out), sow, spread, stretch forth (out)

Non biblical sources are not the inspired word of God.

Next strawman

 

[FreeInChrist]

How is it that "they" are allowed to talk of things like Jewish Law of Agency which are not in the bible
and we dare not even hint at a Trinity or that each of the three is God which is suggested in the bible?

Yes. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14
The Word being the perfect expression of God became flesh - the only begotten of the Father which was Jesus.

Right, it had to be a mortal being, not simply a ram or a sheep, but a human mortal being to make atonement for all humanity.

Yep, this is the record from Matthew. . . they shall call his name Emmanuel which means God with us or God is with us.
NOPE - I don't know what translation you are using but the text does not say 'With us [he is] God' . . . never mind I see it - the only one with that translation! the YLT. . . . (out of approximately 63 different translations and you picked that one . . .hmmm)

It is one of the 4 modern translation that has no Catholic ties to it and no Wescott and Hort so I popped that one on for size because of a debate with Jerimiah who claims there are no more modern translations that dont have ties to Westcott and Hort... which I agree were the worst for translations.....

Yes, And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. . . . And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. . . . and Jesus is the name he actually went by.

Yes.

We know that the 'word' became flesh, became a human being and we know HOW. So, a child, the only Son from the Father was born whose name was Jesus.

Now you have lost me . . . What spirit being was the Word? John 1:1 does not say that the 'spirit was the word'. No one lived with God aka the Father. (except other created spiritual beings, i.e. angels)

God is spirit... the Holy Spirit is spirit... and the Word came from heaven and was with the father before the incarnation so He had to have been spirit.... Just the ability to become Jesus with the Holy Spirit doing whatever... that is no mortal by any stretch.

Yes, when Jesus was resurrected he was in his 'spiritual body' and yes, he walked through a closed door. Yes, he became a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

I don't know of any reference of the 'spirit being the Word'.
It's about attitude - having an attitude of humbleness CONTEXT. Jesus emptied himself of his reputation as King of the Jews, as the Son of God, the Messiah . . . he relinquished his royal and priestly prerogatives and status and held the attitude of a servant. . Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

In Corinthians 15 Paul teaches about the resurrection. Yes, the spiritual came AFTER Jesus was resurrected.
BUT didn't you say Jesus was spiritual first as the 'Word'?

Yes... I did because I just did a very fast Ai search and asked if the Word was a spirit being before the incarnation and I got this
from Elon Musk's Ai baby, named Grok

Yes, according to mainstream historic Christian theology (both Eastern Orthodox and Western, Catholic and Protestant), the Word (Logos) was fully a divine Person, existing eternally as God, before the Incarnation. The question of whether the Word was a “spirit being” needs to be nuanced, because the answer is both yes and more than that.

Key points from Scripture and orthodox doctrine:

1. Eternal existence and full deityJohn 1:1–3 (and 1:14) is the central text:
   
   

   “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

   The Word is not a created spirit or an angel; He is the eternal second Person of the Trinity, fully and completely God.
2. The pre-incarnate Word had no human body or human nature yetBefore the Incarnation, the Son/Word possessed only the divine nature. In that state He is pure spirit (immaterial, non-physical) in the same way the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirit (John 4:24 – “God is spirit”).So yes, in common theological language, the pre-incarnate Logos is correctly described as a “spirit being,” but with the crucial clarification that He is the uncreated, eternal, and fully God—not a creaturely spirit.
3. Classic theological language
   
   • The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (381) says the Son is “begotten of the Father before all ages … Light of Light, true God of true God.”
   • The Chalcedonian Definition (451) teaches that the one Person, the Son, took on a human nature at the Incarnation “without ceasing to be what He was” (i.e., He remained fully divine, possessing the divine nature from all eternity).
4. How the early Church Fathers expressed it
   
   • Athanasius (On the Incarnation): “The Word was not confined in a body from the beginning; rather, He Himself was previously without a body, and afterward became incarnate.”
   • Augustine: “The Son of God was God from eternity; He became man in time.”
   • Gregory of Nazianzus (Oration 29.18): “He was, and He was not [man]. He was, as Word; He was not, as flesh—before He assumed it.”

SummaryYes, before the Incarnation the Word existed eternally as a divine, uncreated “spirit being” (i.e., pure divine spirit without a body or human nature). At the moment of the Incarnation in Mary’s womb, that same eternal divine Person assumed a full human nature (body and rational soul) and has possessed both natures—divine and human—forever after, in one Person.

So the short, accurate answer is:Yes, the Word was a spirit being (the uncreated, eternal Son of God) before He became flesh in the Incarnation.

Now.... LOL.... I dont have time at the moment but I need to research the research that Ai did to be sure myself....
But I had come to that reason just by what we know of the Word. The Word, himself has kept a very low profile
in the bible so if someone has proof I or Ai are wrong... hit me up

 

[amazing grace]

Sorry, I'm not Jewish. I had several Jewish friends (mainly from Morocco) growing up but I was never introduced to Jewish customs. The only connection I have with Jews is the OT. So please tell me where "agency" or "agents" is mentioned in the OT (or even the NT) so that I can get a grasp of this Jewish Agency custom you say is not secular.

While the specific word "Shaliah" (meaning "sent one" or agent) is not in the Bible, the concept of sahliach . . . . Hebrew for 'one sent' is fundamental to the Bible. [shalach: sent, send, sending Strong's Hebrew 7971] (sorry, I did transpose the H# - I corrected it) It's basically anytime someone is SENT to ACT on behalf of another and carries the full authority of the sender, meaning their actions are seen as the sender's own.
Abraham's servant sent to find Isaac a wife in Genesis 24 is one example - the servant was SENT to ACT on behalf of Abraham and Abraham had told the servant that God would send his angel with him.
And he said unto me, The LORD, before whom I walk, will send (shaliach) his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house:

Joseph - And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. Because he was sent by God to Pharaoh - he was God's shaliach, sent to preserve life (Genesis 45:5,7,8).

God told Moses he would be like a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron would speak for him, making Aaron a shaliach (Exodus 4:13, 5,16)
And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. . . . You shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth and will teach you both what to do. He shall speak for you to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.

Then there is the Angel of the LORD often seen as God's representative, speaking and acting with His authority (Judges 13, etc.).

 

[amazing grace]

Non biblical sources are not the inspired word of God.

Next strawman

You're right but knowing Jewish customs is helpful in understanding the culture of the time. I will also consult Lexicons and Concordances. I will also consult other theological commentaries and scholars if it will help in my understanding. At least my whole doctrine is not built up on non-biblical sources.

 

[civic]

You're right but knowing Jewish customs is helpful in understanding the culture of the time. I will also consult Lexicons and Concordances. I will also consult other theological commentaries and scholars if it will help in my understanding.

I agree with the above.

 

[amazing grace]

How is it that "they" are allowed to talk of things like Jewish Law of Agency which are not in the bible
and we dare not even hint at a Trinity or that each of the three is God which is suggested in the bible?

It is good to know the Jewish culture and customs of the time to further understanding. And it is Biblical - look it up H7971 and you will find the word there and it is in regard to ones being sent on a mission, such as a messenger, a agent, on behalf of another.

It is one of the 4 modern translation that has no Catholic ties to it and no Wescott and Hort so I popped that one on for size because of a debate with Jerimiah who claims there are no more modern translations that dont have ties to Westcott and Hort... which I agree were the worst for translations.....

Yeah, I agree it was the worst translation . . .

God is spirit... the Holy Spirit is spirit... and the Word came from heaven and was with the father before the incarnation so He had to have been spirit.... Just the ability to become Jesus with the Holy Spirit doing whatever... that is no mortal by any stretch.

Yes, God is Spirit and God is THE Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 5 . . . But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God. . . . not two people. God is the Holy Spirit.
Jesus came from heaven, i.e. came from God.

Yes... I did because I just did a very fast Ai search and asked if the Word was a spirit being before the incarnation and I got this
from Elon Musk's Ai baby, named Grok

Yes, according to mainstream historic Christian theology (both Eastern Orthodox and Western, Catholic and Protestant), the Word (Logos) was fully a divine Person, existing eternally as God, before the Incarnation. The question of whether the Word was a “spirit being” needs to be nuanced, because the answer is both yes and more than that.

I understand that the majority of people are Trinitarian but I don't believe that the OT believers nor the first century church were. If God intended for us to know and believe that he was actually 3 persons yet ONE God - he would have clearly and succinctly told us, Jesus would have clearly and succinctly taught it and the apostles would have clearly and succinctly taught it ---- I don't believe something so essential and significant for our salvation (as some seem to think) would have been veiled, or hidden. The doctrine was developed over centuries after the Jesus and the apostles were gone.

Constantine called the council of Nicea together primarily to resolve the Arian controversy, a major theological dispute over Jesus's divinity that was dividing the Roman Empire, and to establish doctrinal unity and peace within the Christian Church, which he saw as crucial for his realm's stability. He wanted bishops to agree on a common statement of faith (the Nicene Creed) to define Christ's relationship to God the Father and settle church practices, like the date of Easter, to end schisms. -----AI

Seems to be still going on today so the councils did nothing to solve the issue.

Key points from Scripture and orthodox doctrine:

1. Eternal existence and full deityJohn 1:1–3 (and 1:14) is the central text:
   
   The Word is not a created spirit or an angel; He is the eternal second Person of the Trinity, fully and completely God.

But he was born - he had a beginning, a genesis, therefore not eternal ---- he was created in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit the power of God. He wasn't God. God sent his Son . . . He didn't say he sent himself.

1. The pre-incarnate Word had no human body or human nature yet Before the Incarnation, the Son/Word possessed only the divine nature. In that state He is pure spirit (immaterial, non-physical) in the same way the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirit (John 4:24 – “God is spirit”).So yes, in common theological language, the pre-incarnate Logos is correctly described as a “spirit being,” but with the crucial clarification that He is the uncreated, eternal, and fully God—not a creaturely spirit.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [1 Cor. 15:44,45]

1. Classic theological language
   • The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (381) says the Son is “begotten of the Father before all ages … Light of Light, true God of true God.”
   • The Chalcedonian Definition (451) teaches that the one Person, the Son, took on a human nature at the Incarnation “without ceasing to be what He was” (i.e., He remained fully divine, possessing the divine nature from all eternity).

Yea, Jesus had been dead for approximately 300 years when the first Council of Nicea in 325; Jesus had been dead for approximately 350 years from the above solidified Nicene Creed in 381 --- I know the wording and it is not built on scripture.
How can one be 'begotten of the Father before all ages' when scripture plainly teaches But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law - speaking of the records in Matthew and Luke.
And the nail in the coffin - the Chalcedonian Creed in 451 - Jesus had been dead approximately 421-425 years ----- Jesus while on earth during his ministry remained fully divine - fully deity, fully God. Yet, Jesus said of himself - he was a man, He was the Son of God, the Messiah and never once did he admit he was God.

1. How the early Church Fathers expressed it
   • Athanasius (On the Incarnation): “The Word was not confined in a body from the beginning; rather, He Himself was previously without a body, and afterward became incarnate.”
   • Augustine: “The Son of God was God from eternity; He became man in time.”
   • Gregory of Nazianzus (Oration 29.18): “He was, and He was not [man]. He was, as Word; He was not, as flesh—before He assumed it.”

Summary Yes, before the Incarnation the Word existed eternally as a divine, uncreated “spirit being” (i.e., pure divine spirit without a body or human nature). At the moment of the Incarnation in Mary’s womb, that same eternal divine Person assumed a full human nature (body and rational soul) and has possessed both natures—divine and human—forever after, in one Person.

God was conceived in Mary's womb. God gestated for nine months in Mary's womb. So basically God was just clothed in flesh?
Either one is God or one is a human.

So the short, accurate answer is:Yes, the Word was a spirit being (the uncreated, eternal Son of God) before He became flesh in the Incarnation.

Now.... LOL.... I dont have time at the moment but I need to research the research that Ai did to be sure myself....
But I had come to that reason just by what we know of the Word. The Word, himself has kept a very low profile
in the bible so if someone has proof I or Ai are wrong... hit me up

Paul via inspiration of God said that it is the natural that comes first not the spiritual.
"Kept a very low profile" . . . yeah I would say so . . . and to me, keeping something like that, something that is said to be so essential to our salvation - to keep it hidden is deceitful.

I'll stick with the Creed of scripture: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
And the first and great commandment: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. . . . And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
And Peter's confession: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Thanks, this was pretty civil.

 

[synergy]

While the specific word "Shaliah" (meaning "sent one" or agent) is not in the Bible, the concept of sahliach . . . . Hebrew for 'one sent' is fundamental to the Bible. [shalach: sent, send, sending Strong's Hebrew 7971] (sorry, I did transpose the H# - I corrected it) It's basically anytime someone is SENT to ACT on behalf of another and carries the full authority of the sender, meaning their actions are seen as the sender's own.
Abraham's servant sent to find Isaac a wife in Genesis 24 is one example - the servant was SENT to ACT on behalf of Abraham and Abraham had told the servant that God would send his angel with him.
And he said unto me, The LORD, before whom I walk, will send (shaliach) his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house:

Joseph - And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. Because he was sent by God to Pharaoh - he was God's shaliach, sent to preserve life (Genesis 45:5,7,8).

God told Moses he would be like a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron would speak for him, making Aaron a shaliach (Exodus 4:13, 5,16)
And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. . . . You shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth and will teach you both what to do. He shall speak for you to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.

Then there is the Angel of the LORD often seen as God's representative, speaking and acting with His authority (Judges 13, etc.).

Thanks for that information but in the New Testament the Greek equivalent Apostolos (“one sent”) is used for the Twelve and for other commissioned messengers—but never as a title for Jesus. Have you ever heard of the term Apostle Jesus? Of course not. That's because Jesus is consistently presented as categorically above the Apostolic office: He is the tabernacled Word who was God. Jesus is the sender of apostles (Matt 10:1–2; John 20:21), the source of their authority, and the one who possesses authority inherently, not derivatively. The NT reserves Apostolos for those who are sent by Christ; Jesus is not placed among them because He is the Son, not a mere shaliaḥ. Thus the biblical pattern is clear: a shaliaḥ or Apostolos acts with another’s authority, but Jesus is the One whose authority originates from Himself, eternally above prophets, angels, servants, and apostles.

I prefer to stick with εἰκών which is how the Bible defines Jesus' relationship with God. Suit yourself.