The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

[Runningman]

Since you seem to show awareness of how to count, that's good to know. How many persons are you counting as God in 1 Corinthians 8:4-6? 1 or 3?

 

[FreeInChrist]

While elohim is a plural, it doesn't refer to numerical quantity. It is almost invariably joined with singular attributes, not only with God, but with others who are not God because God is one person just as much as anyone else is one person. God is always called a He, Him, His, I, You because He's one person known as the Father (YHWH). Don't over think it.

No one denies that God the Father is one .

God is a title. Therefore...

God the Son is one and God the Holy Spirit is one.

And that is how you get 3 in one. No over thinking at all.

 

[atpollard]

There are no plural references to Jehovah God in his inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.

None at all! ... EXCEPT FOR ALL THESE FROM THE OP:

A. Two plural pronouns, (Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.​

1. "Our" Gen 1:26
2. "Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8

B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:​

1. "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
2. "Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
3. "Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:7
4. "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

So the "Alter2Ego bible" is missing the following verses:

• Genesis: 1:26; 3:22; 11:7
• Isaiah 6:8

 

[atpollard]

FYI: Steven Rubb is a rabid Trinitarian. Not surprisingly, the Hamilton Church of Christ where he has served for 30+ years as a full-time minister accepts the nonsensical teaching of a 3-prong god, as noted below.

"ad hominem"

An ad hominem fallacy is a logical error where someone attacks an opponent's character, motive, or personal attributes instead of addressing the substance of their argument. Latin for "to the person," this tactic aims to discredit an argument by undermining the speaker rather than engaging with evidence.

Key aspects of the ad hominem fallacy include:

• Definition: Shifting focus away from the topic to personal attacks (e.g., calling someone a "numbskull" instead of addressing their claim).
• Types:
  • Abusive: Direct insults or attacks on character.
  • Circumstantial: Suggesting a person’s argument is invalid due to their circumstances or personal interest.
  • Tu Quoque: Discrediting an argument by pointing out hypocrisy, or claiming the speaker is guilty of what they are criticizing.
• Purpose: It is used to divert attention from the real issue and manipulate the audience into rejecting an argument based on irrelevance.
• Why it's a Fallacy: A person's character or personal traits have no inherent bearing on the logic or evidence of their argument.

 

[Runningman]

View attachment 2800
No one denies that God the Father is one .

God is a title. Therefore...

God the Son is one and God the Holy Spirit is one.

And that is how you get 3 in one. No over thinking at all.

But God is referred to with singular personal pronouns, exhaustively, and without exception from cover to cover, thousands of times, but never a they or them. In all languages and cultures throughout the history of human civilization, singular pronouns always refer to one person. Hence God is explicitly defined as one person, not just in pronouns only, but also explicitly identified as the Father alone.

This debate quickly moves from the Bible into the realm of English grammar. That's a debate you'll lose. I hope you weren't thinking you can somehow change English just to suit your religion.

Don't overthink it.

 

[Capbook]

I think God the Father speaks to everyone in a loud audible voice no - but he does speak to his children through the gift of holy spirit all believers receive ----- a still small voice.

As no, I believe you confirm that Jesus and Bible lexicon was correct what "anytime" means, as Jesus specifically said about the "voice" of the Father.

Thank you again for your information. I have looked at all this before.

You are welcome. Glory to God alone.

I agree that logos and it's companion Hebrew dabar mean something spoken, word, thing, speech.
Yes, God created all things through His speech, His word and nothing was created apart from His speaking it into being.
In Greek grammar the 'word', logos, is a masculine noun and therefore a masculine pronoun follows. In this case, 'he', 'him' is personifying the 'word' just as the pronoun 'she' personifies wisdom in Proverbs.

THE POINT OF THIS THREAD ----- USING PLURAL PRONOUNS IN RELATION TO YAHWEH/the LORD --- not the meaning of logos/dabar. IOW, WAS GOD SPEAKING TO AN ACTUAL SOMEONE ELSE OR SPEAKING TO HIS TRIUNE PERSONS (the second and third persons of the Trinity.

I believe the Tetragrammaton is only one, as the personal name of the Father.
The plural pronoun could be use or applied to the "God/Elohim" as it is plural. Singular is "Eloah."
Yes, during the creation week, the three were present, the Holy Spirit, the Logos and the Father.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one! , יהוה is one!
Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness. Let not Eloah from above seek for it, nor let light shine upon it.
Job 3:4 "May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it.
Job 3:4 "May that dayH3117 be darknessH2822; Let not GodH433 aboveH4605 careH1875 for it, NorH408 lightH5105 shineH3313 on it.
H430
אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural

 

[Capbook]

But God is referred to with singular personal pronouns, exhaustively, and without exception from cover to cover, thousands of times, but never a they or them. In all languages and cultures throughout the history of human civilization, singular pronouns always refer to one person. Hence God is explicitly defined as one person, not just in pronouns only, but also explicitly identified as the Father alone.

I believe the Tetragrammaton is only one, as the personal name of the Father.
The word God by itself as "Elohim" is plural, though referred with singular pronoun.
If you believe "God" is explicitly defined as one person, Jesus could be that person, as the Father Himself identify Jesus as God. (Heb 1:8,9)

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!

H430
אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods

This debate quickly moves from the Bible into the realm of English grammar. That's a debate you'll lose. I hope you weren't thinking you can somehow change English just to suit your religion.

Don't overthink it.

I believe English grammar cannot decides what the Biblical Greek grammar supposed to be, they differ significantly.


Biblical (Koine) Greek grammar is not the same as English grammar, they differ significantly in structure, precision, and mechanics. While English relies on word order to convey meaning, Greek is a highly inflected language, using word endings (cases) to determine the grammatical role of words, allowing for more flexible word order. https://www.google.com/search?q=is+Bible+greek+grammar+same+with+english+grammar&client=firefox-b-e&hs=hHu9&sca_esv=e65071d0be4bfe9c&sxsrf=ANbL-n4z8y8aMyXhbaRZyx2wkCX-rc50Hw:1769497549396&ei=zWN4aeX4F87l2roPmaCXwAY&ved=0ahUKEwilk_OGlKuSAxXOslYBHRnQBWgQ4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=is+Bible+greek+grammar+same+with+english+grammar&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiMGlzIEJpYmxlIGdyZWVrIGdyYW1tYXIgc2FtZSB3aXRoIGVuZ2xpc2ggZ3JhbW1hcjIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogRIjSBQ7wZYgBJwAXgBkAEAmAHiAaABjAmqAQUwLjMuM7gBA8gBAPgBAZgCB6ACvwnCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIEECMYJ8ICCBAAGKIEGIkFwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgoQIRigARjDBBgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcFMS4zLjOgB-UZsgcFMC4zLjO4B7IJwgcHMC4yLjMuMsgHHYAIAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

[FreeInChrist]

But God is referred to with singular personal pronouns, exhaustively, and without exception from cover to cover, thousands of times, but never a they or them. In all languages and cultures throughout the history of human civilization, singular pronouns always refer to one person. Hence God is explicitly defined as one person, not just in pronouns only, but also explicitly identified as the Father alone.

This debate quickly moves from the Bible into the realm of English grammar. That's a debate you'll lose. I hope you weren't thinking you can somehow change English just to suit your religion.

Don't overthink it.

@Runningman ,

What's to overthink? No over thinking when facts are facts.... only when twisting those facts to make them fit.

Your argument confuses grammar with ontology. Singular pronouns don’t mean “one person,” they mean one entity.

We say, you and I....

“the team… it”

“the family… it”

“the committee… it”

Singular grammar, multiple persons. So that rule already fails in normal English. And it fails biblically too.

YOU said God is never referred to plurally — but Scripture literally says..

“Let Us make man in Our image” (Gen 1:26)

“one of Us” (Gen 3:22)

“Let Us go down” (Gen 11:7)

“Who will go for Us?” (Isa 6:8)

So grammar clearly isn’t defining personhood.

Also, “God” isn’t a person-word — it’s a nature word.

The Bible calls,
the Father God

the Son God (John 1:1; John 20:28; Heb 1:8) and

the Spirit God (Acts 5:3–4)

Yet says God is one (Deut 6:4).

So either Scripture contradicts itself, or your “one pronoun = one person” rule is wrong.


This isn’t about English grammar. It’s about what Scripture actually says.

REMEMBER....

---

Singular pronouns prove one being, not one person. We use singulars for groups all the time. Scripture even uses “Us/Our” for God. The Father, Son, and Spirit are each called God, yet God is one. That’s Bible, not grammar.

 

[amazing grace]

As no, I believe you confirm that Jesus and Bible lexicon was correct what "anytime" means, as Jesus specifically said about the "voice" of the Father.

You are welcome. Glory to God alone.

I believe the Tetragrammaton is only one, as the personal name of the Father.
The plural pronoun could be use or applied to the "God/Elohim" as it is plural. Singular is "Eloah."
Yes, during the creation week, the three were present, the Holy Spirit, the Logos and the Father.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one! , יהוה is one!
Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness. Let not Eloah from above seek for it, nor let light shine upon it.
Job 3:4 "May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it.
Job 3:4 "May that dayH3117 be darknessH2822; Let not GodH433 aboveH4605 careH1875 for it, NorH408 lightH5105 shineH3313 on it.
H430
אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural

He couldn't possibly have been discussing the creating of human beings with other created spiritual beings, i.e. the angels - who would have been in his presence because it seems much more logical that God was discussing the creating of human beings with the other persons within himself - the second person of the Trinity and the third person of the Trinity. Okay then.