Strawman.
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John 17:3-what Jesus taught
- Thread starter Keiw1
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Strawman.
Matthias
Well-known member
“The answer Jesus gave was thoroughly non-controversial, quoting the most famous of Jewish prayers (‘Hear, O Israel, YHWH our god, YHWH is one’). The Shema, the prayer which begins with these lines , was as central to Judaism then as it is now, …”
“Jesus’ beliefs, therefore, remained those of a first-century Jew, committed to the coming kingdom of Israel’s god. He did not waver in his loyalty to Jewish doctrine. … He was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”
(N.T. Wright, Jesus and the Victory of God, p. 305, 652)
Jesus of Nazareth is a first-century Jewish monotheist. His doctrine is Jewish. His God is only one person, YHWH.
Jewish monotheism is unitarian, not trinitarian.
Jesus of Nazareth is a unitarian.
Let the trinitarians continue to deny it and insist that it isn’t true.
Will the reader follow Jesus or will the reader follow the trinitarians?
Jesus points us to his God alone; the only true God. Trinitarianism - trinitarians point us to their deity, the Trinity; which they assert is the only true God.
“Jesus’ beliefs, therefore, remained those of a first-century Jew, committed to the coming kingdom of Israel’s god. He did not waver in his loyalty to Jewish doctrine. … He was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”
(N.T. Wright, Jesus and the Victory of God, p. 305, 652)
Jesus of Nazareth is a first-century Jewish monotheist. His doctrine is Jewish. His God is only one person, YHWH.
Jewish monotheism is unitarian, not trinitarian.
Jesus of Nazareth is a unitarian.
Let the trinitarians continue to deny it and insist that it isn’t true.
Will the reader follow Jesus or will the reader follow the trinitarians?
Jesus points us to his God alone; the only true God. Trinitarianism - trinitarians point us to their deity, the Trinity; which they assert is the only true God.
Judaism 101: One of the primary expressions of Jewish faith, recited twice daily in prayer, is the Shema, which begins "Hear, Israel: The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd is one." (Deut. 6:4) This simple statement encompasses several different ideas...The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other. (The Nature of G-d)
http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm
Since the Bible teaches the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (you admitted that you pray to Jesus) demonstrates He is YHWH (cf. Deuteronomy 6:4).
civic
Well-known member
They can't get the shema right and put their spin on it to just like John 1:1, John 17:3-5, John 20:28 etc....... The Scriptures shout Jesus is God, Lord, YHWH.
Matthias
Well-known member
JAT does not allow Jesus of Nazareth to be what he is - a Jew, a unitarian, whose God is the God of Israel.
The one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus of Nazareth - YHWH, is the Father alone.
Trinitarianism is a departure from the Jewish doctrine of Jesus of Nazareth.
Follow trinitarianism and we follow a doctrine which isn’t Jewish.
Follow trinitarian doctrine and we aren’t following Jesus of Nazareth.
Denying that Jesus is unitarian is spiritual blindness.
The one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus of Nazareth - YHWH, is the Father alone.
Trinitarianism is a departure from the Jewish doctrine of Jesus of Nazareth.
Follow trinitarianism and we follow a doctrine which isn’t Jewish.
Follow trinitarian doctrine and we aren’t following Jesus of Nazareth.
Denying that Jesus is unitarian is spiritual blindness.
Matthias does.
civic
Well-known member
That is where many unitarians are different. The JW's do not place any equality with the Father and Son with their attributes or position/rank. While others do place some equality with Father and Son.
So while many unitarians will attack trinis for our differences they also have their differences as well. Its why on either side it becomes a fallacious argument. Its best to just deal with the individual on both sides instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is just my 2 cents fwiw.
Matthias
Well-known member
Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish monotheist. I’m a Jewish monotheist.
Trinitarians aren’t Jewish monotheists.
In order to be a trinitarian, a person must reject the unitary monotheism of Jesus and embrace the trinitary monotheism of the 4th century Church.
Jesus hasn’t rejected his unitary monotheism, and never will.
Trinitarians aren’t Jewish monotheists.
In order to be a trinitarian, a person must reject the unitary monotheism of Jesus and embrace the trinitary monotheism of the 4th century Church.
Jesus hasn’t rejected his unitary monotheism, and never will.
Keiw is right that only God is to be prayed to, but he is wrong that Jesus isn't to be prayed to.
Matthias is right that Jesus is to be prayed to, but He is wrong that He isn't God.
Not in your misunderstanding as to what this means.
civic
Well-known member
ditto
It would be interesting to see them debate one another as to whether or not the Bible teaches Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
Matthias
Well-known member
For a Jewish monotheist - and the reader must recall that Jesus of Nazareth himself is a Jewish monotheist - there is no God besides the Father.
The alternative we are given in scripture:
The God of Jewish monotheism or idols.
The Trinity isn’t the God of Jewish monotheism.
The alternative we are given in scripture:
The God of Jewish monotheism or idols.
The Trinity isn’t the God of Jewish monotheism.
God is the proper recipient of prayer.
Idols (any created thing) are not the proper recipient of prayer.
Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
Jesus isn't an idol.
Jesus is God.
Matthias
Well-known member
For your entertainment?
It would be interesting in seeing the various arguments used without one side accusing the other of so-called Trinitarian bias.
civic
Well-known member
No thats not how I roll lol. To see how you guys come to your differences based upon being a unitarian
