DavidTree
Active Member
Please post the scripture that says "Jesus was begotten BEFORE the world was made"
Thank you
What does it mean that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son ?
- Thread starter civic
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Thank you
Dizerner
Active Member
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Col. 1:15 NIV)
I know people work hard to get around the plain sense of this passage, but if you won't accept the plain meaning, why demand exact phrasing at all? You will always change the plain meaning to fit what you already believe anyway.
I think this is pretty powerful testament that the Son was born, and he was born before all creation.
Whosoever
Active Member
Jesus Christ is “the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”
I and the Father are one. John 10:30
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? I am not speaking the words which I am saying to you from Myself, but the Father abiding in Me is doing His works. John 14:10
the one having seen Me has seen the Father. John 14:9
I and the Father are one. John 10:30
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? I am not speaking the words which I am saying to you from Myself, but the Father abiding in Me is doing His works. John 14:10
the one having seen Me has seen the Father. John 14:9
DavidTree
Active Member
firstborn = is the word that defines the meaning of this passage AND only speaks of the Incarnation = John chapter 1
over = defines Authority
creation = Genesis chapter 1 = all that we can see and that which is unseen, all that pertains to creation
"firstborn" is the Incarnation = there is no declaration of a "firstborn" BEFORE creation apart from Prophecy
@Whosover, we AGREE that the Word was God BEFORE the Word became flesh and now known as Lord Jesus Christ
We AGREE that JESUS CHRIST is God in the flesh = Immanuel = God with us.
We know that the Word was God and only when HE came to earth and took on human form did HE become Jesus Christ
There was no begotten Son BEFORE the WORD that was God became flesh = Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
If you read John 1:1-3 and then compare to Colossians 1:15-18 you will see that the Word that was God is now JESUS CHRIST
Dizerner
Active Member
The Greek clearly says "Firstborn of all creation."
Jesus at the Incarnation was NOT the first born!
Many, many, many things were born before him.
DavidTree
Active Member
You are getting closer
"firstborn over creation"
Adam was the first man = the first man created in the image of God = the first Adam = 1Cor 15:45
The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit.
So now we SEE that the term firstborn is strictly and only speaking of the Incarnation of the Word that was God.
the first man, Adam, sinned, therefore he could not become the "firstborn over creation"
God promised that a man would Rule over creation = that Man is JESUS CHRIST = the firstborn over creation
@civic
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Posted in wrong thread. Sorry
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civic
Active Member
How do the Greek Lexicons and Greek Grammarians define this word in Colossians 1:15 ?
NT:4416
prototokos (prwto/toko$, NT:4416), "firstborn" (from protos, "first," and tikto, "to beget"), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luke 2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the "first" to be born. It is used occasionally of superiority of position in the OT, see Ex 4:22; Deut 21:16, 17, the prohibition being against the evil of assigning the privileged position of the "firstborn" to one born subsequently to the "first" child.
The five passages in the NT relating to the Son may be set forth chronologically thus: (a) Colossians 1:15, where His eternal relationship the Son has with the Father is in view, and the clause means both that He was the "Firstborn" before all creation and that He Himself produced creation (the genitive case being objective, as v. 16 makes clear); (b) Colossians 1:18 and Revelation 1:5, in reference to His resurrection; (c) Romans 8:29, His position in relationship to the church; (d) Hebrews 1:6, RV, His second advent (the RV "when He again bringeth in," puts "again" in the right place, the contrast to His first advent, at His birth, being implied); cf. Psalm 89:27. The word is used in the plural, in Hebrews 11:28, of the firstborn sons in the families of the Egyptians, and in Hebrews 12:23, of the members of the Church.
Note: With (a) cf. John 1:30, "He was before me," lit., "He was first (protos) of me," i. e., "in regard to me," expressing all that is involved in His preexistence and priority.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
NT:4416
The figurative meaning of prwto/toko$ in the messianic title prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ 'firstborn of all creation' (Col 1:15 may be interpreted as 'existing before all creation' (see 13.79) or 'existing superior to all creation' (see 87.47).
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)
13.79 NT:4416† prwto/toko$b, on: pertaining to existing prior to something else - 'existing first, existing before.' prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ 'existing before all creation' or 'existing before anything was created' Col 1:15. It is possible to understand prwto/toko$ in Col 1:15 as 'superior in status' (see 87.47). See also discussion at 10.43.(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)
87.47 NT:4416† prwto/toko$c, on: pertaining to existing superior to all else of the same or related class - 'superior to, above all.' prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ 'existing superior to all creation' Col 1:15. For another interpretation of prwto/toko$ in Col 1:15, see 13.79;
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)
Colossians 1:15
The expression does not mean that he was "begotten before all creatures," as it is often explained, but refers to the simple fact that he sustains the highest rank over the creation. He is the Son of God. He is the heir of all things. All other creatures are also the "offspring of God;" but he is exalted as the Son of God above all.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Colossians 1:15
First-born of every creature (Heb 1:6) - "the first-begotten:" 'begotten of His Father before all worlds' ('Nicene Creed'). 'God, of the substance of His Father, begotten before the worlds; and man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world' ('Athanasian Creed'). Priority and superlative dignity is implied (Ps 89:27). The English version seems to make Christ a creature. Translate [proototokos pasees ktiseoos], 'Begotten before every creature,' as the context gives the reason why He is so designated: 'For,' etc. (Trench), Col 1:16-17, "He is before all things." Thus, pasa ktisis has not to be taken 'the first-begotten of all creatures,' but in its strict sense, 'before every creature.' "First-begotten" marks at once His eternal priority and His condescending to brotherhood with us (Rom 8:29). "Only-begotten" marks His relation to the Father by generation from everlasting. This expression is used by Origen (so far is the Greek from favouring Arian views) to mark Christ's Godhead, in contrast with His manhood, (B. ii. , contra Cels.) Since He was before "every creature" [the genitive of the point of view, 'in comparison to' far or long before: John 1:15, 30, protosmou; John 15:18, etc.], He cannot be a creature Himself, but the Creator. The Greek is against Alford's translation, 'the first-born of all creation.'
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Colossians 1:15
The first born proototokos. Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus (a) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" pasees ktiseoos, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prootos that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6, 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like eikoon we find proototokos in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikoon (Image) and to the universe as proototokos (First-born).
(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)
Colossians 1:15
The first-born of every creature proototokos pasees ktiseoos. The English Revised Version (1885): "the first-born of all creation." For "first-born," see the note at Rev 1:5; for "creation," at 2 Cor 5:17. As "image" points to "revelation," so "first-born" points to "eternal pre-existence." Even the English Revised Version is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: "in Him were all things created." The true sense is, "born before the creation." Compare "before all things," Col 1:17. This fact of priority implies "sovereignty." He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are "unto" eis Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Ps 89:27; Heb 1:2.
(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Colossians 1:15
The word "firstborn" is prœtotokos. The Greek word implied two things, priority to all creation and sovereignty over all creation. In the first meaning we see the absolute preexistence of the Logos. Since our Lord existed before all created things, He must be uncreated. Since He is uncreated, He is eternal. Since He is eternal, He is God. Since He is God, He cannot be one of the emanations from deity of which the Gnostic speaks, even though He proceeds from God the Father as the Son. In the second meaning we see that He is the natural ruler, the acknowledged head of God's household. Thus again, He cannot be one of the emanations from deity in whom the divine essence is present but diffused. He is Lord of creation.
(from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, Copyright 1940-55 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Copyrights © renewed 1968-73 by Jeannette I. Wuest. All rights reserved.)
NT:4416
13.79 NT:4416† prwto/toko$b, on: pertaining to existing prior to something else - 'existing first, existing before.' prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ 'existing before all creation' or 'existing before anything was created' Col 1:15. It is possible to understand prwto/toko$ in Col 1:15 as 'superior in status' (see 87.47). See also discussion at 10.43.(Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon )
conclusion: it means superior, existing before creation, sovereign over, ranking over creation,
hope this helps !!!
Dizerner
Active Member
Be aware that Lexicons can have as much of a theological bias as people on this forum. Don't just assume they are inviolate.
Every single word in existence has the capability to be used metaphorically; that's just how flexible language is.
But we must not simply minimize the primary and most common meaning of a word just because we don't like its implications.
The fact is the word simply literally means "first to be born" and is used that way 99% of the time in both the LXX and NT.
So we must be careful here not to reject something just because of a prior commitment to fight an opposing doctrine.
Because, in the ancient world, the firstborn had special rights of inheritance, it is theoretically possible to take metaphorically.
Every single word in existence has the capability to be used metaphorically; that's just how flexible language is.
But we must not simply minimize the primary and most common meaning of a word just because we don't like its implications.
The fact is the word simply literally means "first to be born" and is used that way 99% of the time in both the LXX and NT.
So we must be careful here not to reject something just because of a prior commitment to fight an opposing doctrine.
Because, in the ancient world, the firstborn had special rights of inheritance, it is theoretically possible to take metaphorically.
Dizerner
Active Member
Entry from Moulton and Milligan Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament:
689 πρωτότοκος [pg 557] πρωτότοκος
“firstborn.” As additional proof that this word is to be taken out of the list of purely “Biblical” words, Deissmann (LAE, p. 88) cites the undated pagan sepulchral inscr. Kaibel 4604 ἱρεὺς γάρ εἰμι πρωτοτόκων ἐκ τελεθ@ῶν ?] (= τελετ@ῶν] ?) “for I am a priest by the rites of the firstborn,” and notes that the editor suggests that in the family of the deceased the firstborn always exercised the office of priest. He also refers to a Christian metrical epitaph from Rome of ii/iii A.D. Kaibel 7303 πρωτότοκον, διετές, with reference to a firstborn “sun-child” (ἡλιόπαις), i.e. child born on a Sunday, who died at the age of two years. Note further a sacrificial decree of c. B.C. 200, Syll 615 (=31024)17, in which mention is made of ὗν ἐνκύμονα πρωτότοκον, and a decree of adoption of A.D. 381, P Lips 59815 (=Archiv iii. p. 173) πρ@ὸ]ς τὸ εἶναί σου υἱ@ὸ]ν γνήσιον καὶ πρωτότοκον ὡς ἐξ ἰδίου αἵματος γεννηθέντα σοι, and the magical P Osl I. I312 (iv/A.D.) λαβὼν πρωτοτόκου κριοῦ ὀμφάλιον.
1. Lexical Meaning
2. Purpose of the Entry
3. Evidence Provided from Non-Biblical Sources
4. Conclusion of the Entry
5. Why This Matters for NT Interpretation
689 πρωτότοκος [pg 557] πρωτότοκος
“firstborn.” As additional proof that this word is to be taken out of the list of purely “Biblical” words, Deissmann (LAE, p. 88) cites the undated pagan sepulchral inscr. Kaibel 4604 ἱρεὺς γάρ εἰμι πρωτοτόκων ἐκ τελεθ@ῶν ?] (= τελετ@ῶν] ?) “for I am a priest by the rites of the firstborn,” and notes that the editor suggests that in the family of the deceased the firstborn always exercised the office of priest. He also refers to a Christian metrical epitaph from Rome of ii/iii A.D. Kaibel 7303 πρωτότοκον, διετές, with reference to a firstborn “sun-child” (ἡλιόπαις), i.e. child born on a Sunday, who died at the age of two years. Note further a sacrificial decree of c. B.C. 200, Syll 615 (=31024)17, in which mention is made of ὗν ἐνκύμονα πρωτότοκον, and a decree of adoption of A.D. 381, P Lips 59815 (=Archiv iii. p. 173) πρ@ὸ]ς τὸ εἶναί σου υἱ@ὸ]ν γνήσιον καὶ πρωτότοκον ὡς ἐξ ἰδίου αἵματος γεννηθέντα σοι, and the magical P Osl I. I312 (iv/A.D.) λαβὼν πρωτοτόκου κριοῦ ὀμφάλιον.
1. Lexical Meaning
πρωτότοκος = “firstborn” (from πρῶτος = "first" and τίκτω = "to give birth").
2. Purpose of the Entry
To disprove the notion that πρωτότοκος is a "Biblical" term in the sense of being limited to or originated in religious texts like the LXX or New Testament.
The word also had everyday, cultural, legal, and ritual use in the wider Greco-Roman world.
3. Evidence Provided from Non-Biblical Sources
A. Pagan Sepulchral Inscription (Kaibel 4604)
ἱρεὺς γάρ εἰμι πρωτοτόκων ἐκ τελεθ@ῶν ? (= τελετ@ῶν?)
Translation: “For I am a priest by the rites of the firstborn.”
Context: A pagan funerary inscription (i.e., from a tombstone) where someone identifies as a priest serving according to “rites of the firstborn.”
·
Significance: Suggests a ritualistic or religious role of the firstborn in some families or cults, where the firstborn may have had priestly duties.
Textual Note: The word τελεθ@ῶν is uncertain, possibly a misreading or corrupt form, and the editor suggests τελετῶν ("rituals/ceremonies") as the correct form.
B. Christian Epitaph (Kaibel 7303)
πρωτότοκον, διετές
Translation: “Firstborn, two years old”
Describes a young child (διετές = two years old) who is referred to as πρωτότοκος.
Further described as a ἡλιόπαις (hēliopais), “sun-child,” i.e., a child born on a Sunday.
Significance: Shows that πρωτότοκος was used in Christian epitaphs as well, but in a natural, familial sense, not uniquely theological.
C. Sacrificial Decree (~200 B.C.) – Sylloge Inscriptionum Graecarum 615
ὗν ἐνκύμονα πρωτότοκον
Translation: “A pregnant sow, firstborn”
Context: Part of a sacrificial regulation involving animals.
Significance: The word πρωτότοκος applies not just to people but also to animals, just like in the OT. This aligns with usage in Exodus and Leviticus, but is shown here in a pagan ritual context.
D. Decree of Adoption (A.D. 381) – Papyrus Lipsiensis 598
πρ[ὸ]ς τὸ εἶναί σου υἱ[ὸ]ν γνήσιον καὶ πρωτότοκον ὡς ἐξ ἰδίου αἵματος γεννηθέντα σοι
Translation: “[...in order for him] to be your legitimate and firstborn son, as if born from your own blood.”
Context: A legal document regarding the adoption of a child.
Significance: Shows that πρωτότοκος was used legally to designate status (in this case, of an adopted child being treated as a biological firstborn heir).
E. Magical Papyrus (iv/A.D.) – Papyrus Osloensis I.312
λαβὼν πρωτοτόκου κριοῦ ὀμφάλιον
Translation: “Having taken the navel-string (umbilical cord) of a firstborn ram.”
Context: A magical text involving the use of materials in rituals.
Significance: Again, πρωτότοκος is used of animals. The firstborn’s umbilical cord is used, showing it had perceived ritual potency in magical or folk religious practice.
4. Conclusion of the Entry
πρωτότοκος is not a word invented or restricted to the LXX/NT.
It had ritual, legal, familial, and magical uses in pagan society.
This undercuts any claim that its meaning must be strictly theological in Christian texts (e.g., Colossians 1:15).
5. Why This Matters for NT Interpretation
In the New Testament, πρωτότοκος is used not only literally (e.g., Luke 2:7, Jesus as Mary’s firstborn) but theologically:
Romans 8:29 – Christ as “firstborn among many brethren”
Colossians 1:15 – “firstborn of all creation”
Hebrews 1:6 – “when he brings the firstborn into the world”
Understanding that πρωτότοκος had a wide range of meanings—including legal, ritual, and metaphorical ones—in the Greco-Roman world allows us to better appreciate how early Christians used and understood the term without importing foreign assumptions.
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DavidTree
Active Member
You are 100% CORRECT with 100% TRUTH in your conclusion
ghghhg
Do you understand what you just said here?
That it completely undermines the position of a eternally begotten Son
Deut 21:16-17 VALIDATES that the WORD became the firstborn over creation AFTER HE came into the world NOT before
For that son is the firstfruits of his father’s strength; the right of the firstborn belongs to him.
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Dizerner
Active Member
What do you think of the concept born outside of time from eternity?
DavidTree
Active Member
That is the Scripture(s) we are seeking to find if it exists.
If we find God saying this in the Scripture then we KNOW the Truth and the Truth will set us free from presuppositional error.
DavidTree
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Aaron
Active Member
I think I need more coffee to even begin to take that concept on... OK ready to go!
Christ existed in eternity past before any part of creation came into existence is found in the Bible.
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5
This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages.
There are many more:
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Pre-existence?
Bible verses about Jesus Pre-existence
DavidTree
Active Member
conclusion: it means superior, existing before creation, sovereign over, ranking over creation,
@civic = i AGREE with your conclusion but HE did so as the WORD that was God before the Incarnation
Compare John 1:1-3 to Colossians 1:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Same Person who created all things.
The only difference = "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" = "Firstborn/Begotten"
@civic = i AGREE with your conclusion but HE did so as the WORD that was God before the Incarnation
Compare John 1:1-3 to Colossians 1:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Same Person who created all things.
The only difference = "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" = "Firstborn/Begotten"
DavidTree
Active Member
Eternal pre-existence = YESI think I need more coffee to even begin to take that concept on... OK ready to go!
Christ existed in eternity past before any part of creation came into existence is found in the Bible.
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5
This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages.
There are many more:
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Pre-existence?
Bible verses about Jesus Pre-existencewww.openbible.info
As a man??? = No
Dizerner
Active Member
Okay, but I don't mean "do you think it's in Scripture."
I mean do you think it's a theoretically viable and coherent statement in regards to the Trinity?
It seems you think it is at least possible...
DavidTree
Active Member
AGREE
