Introducing the Son of (his) Father God - John 1:18, 20:17b

APAK said:
Fred, this OT verse is about YHWH not his Son.
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What YHWH alone knows is used in reference to Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus is YHWH.


APAK said:
Christ could not see the hearts of people independently.
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The Father and Son never do things independently from one another.


APAK said:
He had to rely on the Spirit of his Father to discern
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Thus, all there Persons are God. Thanks.


APAK said:
...to read the heart...as any genuine believer today can also at least discern in the same way on a general scale via the Spirit of God. I can!
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Pride.
No, you can't.
You can't even fully know your own heart.

To fully know the hearts of all people (kardiognōstēs) is the same thing as being omniscient (= God).
1. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): kardiognōstēs is unknown to secular Gk. and to the LXX, and occurs in the NT only in Acts 1:24 and 15:8 and later in patristic writings. It describes God as the knower of hearts. The fact that God sees, tests and searches the hidden depths of the human heart is commonly stated in both the OT and the NT (1 Sam. 16:7; Jer. 11:20; 17:9f.; Lk. 16:15; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 2:23). This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognōstēs (2:183, Heart, T. Sorg).
2. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The designation of God as ho kardiognōstēs , "the One who knows the heart," expresses in a single term (Ac. 1:24; 15:8) something which is familiar to both the NT and OT piety (Lk. 16:15; R. 8:27; 1 Th. 2:4 Rev. 2:23 of Christ, cf. 1 Bas. 16:7; 3 Bas. 8:39; 1 Par. 28:9; Psalm 7:9; Ier. 11:20; 17:10; Sir. 42:18 ff.), namely that the omniscient God knows the innermost being of every man where the decision is made either for Him or against Him (3:613, kardiognōstēs, Behm).
3. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT): On the one hand God is "in heaven" (Matt 6:9f. par.; 7:11; 11:25) and strictly distinguishable from everything that is of this world. On the other hand, however, he is present (Matt 6:1-18; Rev 1:8) and omniscient (Matt 6:8, 32; Acts 1:24; 15:8) (2:141, theos, G. Schneider).
4. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDOTTE): the psalmist acknowledged the omniscience of God who knows the secrets of the heart (44:21[22]) (3:426, ta`alummah - hidden, secret, Andrew Hill).
 
Fred said:
What YHWH alone knows is used in reference to Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus is YHWH.



The Father and Son never do things independently from one another.




Thus, all there Persons are God. Thanks.




Pride.
No, you can't.
You can't even fully know your own heart.

To fully know the hearts of all people (kardiognōstēs) is the same thing as being omniscient (= God).
1. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): kardiognōstēs is unknown to secular Gk. and to the LXX, and occurs in the NT only in Acts 1:24 and 15:8 and later in patristic writings. It describes God as the knower of hearts. The fact that God sees, tests and searches the hidden depths of the human heart is commonly stated in both the OT and the NT (1 Sam. 16:7; Jer. 11:20; 17:9f.; Lk. 16:15; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 2:23). This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognōstēs (2:183, Heart, T. Sorg).
2. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The designation of God as ho kardiognōstēs , "the One who knows the heart," expresses in a single term (Ac. 1:24; 15:8) something which is familiar to both the NT and OT piety (Lk. 16:15; R. 8:27; 1 Th. 2:4 Rev. 2:23 of Christ, cf. 1 Bas. 16:7; 3 Bas. 8:39; 1 Par. 28:9; Psalm 7:9; Ier. 11:20; 17:10; Sir. 42:18 ff.), namely that the omniscient God knows the innermost being of every man where the decision is made either for Him or against Him (3:613, kardiognōstēs, Behm).
3. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT): On the one hand God is "in heaven" (Matt 6:9f. par.; 7:11; 11:25) and strictly distinguishable from everything that is of this world. On the other hand, however, he is present (Matt 6:1-18; Rev 1:8) and omniscient (Matt 6:8, 32; Acts 1:24; 15:8) (2:141, theos, G. Schneider).
4. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDOTTE): the psalmist acknowledged the omniscience of God who knows the secrets of the heart (44:21[22]) (3:426, ta`alummah - hidden, secret, Andrew Hill).
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Slow down a bit Fred, you did not understand my words. I never said I knew my own own heart, Stop adding in stuff that's not there again. Just ask me first if you please.

I intended on saying as I said it. that what Christ did I can even do as a believer today, discern the hearts of (some) men - not my own heart,,,,etc. And no pride here at all Fred. The glory goes to the Father, it is all the Father's Spirit working within me as it did in his Son when he spoke those verses of scripture.

And @DavidTree you mean to tell me you cannot perceive or know the hearts of another at times especially given clear entering arguments as Jesus was giving before he spoke/replied to his audience, of that one scripture verse you tossed at me? I can also perceive their hearts in this scenario, indeed given this same situation as another son of man with the Spirit of YHWH as my source.

Let's look at this verse @DavidTree , can you explain its context...of Luke 9:47? Did you bother to notice there were other verses critical to its understanding, or did you just pull out your wetted ink stamp and slap Jesus =YHWH all over the words of God as a typical Trinitarian does, as they attempt to know scripture and they do not?

How can you want to really know scripture, when you are mesmerized, reoccupied in a desperate attempt to make all scripture say YHWH = his Son for your non-biblical derived and non-descript triune god, and not even bother with you typical AWOL HS person many times, as if it/he does not exist.

(Luk 9:46) And there arose a dispute among them, which of them was the greatest.
(Luk 9:47) But when Jesus saw the reasoning of their heart, he took a little child and set him by his side,
(Luk 9:48) and said to them: Whoever shall receive this little child in my name receives me, and whoever shall receive me, receives Him that sent me. For he that is least among you all, the same is great.

Now read all 3 verses @DavidTree so as believer you cannot know or perceive the minds and heart of these folks, on this important subject of the Kingdom? I can!

They did not understand the Kingdom, period? They thought that the Kingdom would have folks in ranks of importance etc. They did not know that the Spirit of God would be within them equally and form one Body of Christ.....

So you as a son of man, as a believer, cannot know with this openly given pre-requisite information that Yahshua was not YHWH? Yahshua learned all about the Kingdom over the years from his Father, and therefore could perceive the err in their minds. Easy to do.

No, it is laughable to say there is proof here that Yahshua was even omniscient as @Fred is now raving about the Son of man that he is YHWH again.

Bonkers I tell, both off your rockers!
 
APAK said:
Slow down a bit Fred, you did not understand my words. I never said I knew my own own heart, Stop adding in stuff that's not there again. Just ask me first if you please.

I intended on saying as I said it. that what Christ did I can even do as a believer today, discern the hearts of (some) men - not my own heart,,,,etc. And no pride here at all Fred. The glory goes to the Father, it is all the Father's Spirit working within me as it did in his Son when he spoke those verses of scripture.

And @DavidTree you mean to tell me you cannot perceive or know the hearts of another at times especially given clear entering arguments as Jesus was giving before he spoke/replied to his audience, of that one scripture verse you tossed at me? I can also perceive their hearts in this scenario, indeed given this same situation as another son of man with the Spirit of YHWH as my source.

Let's look at this verse @DavidTree , can you explain its context...of Luke 9:47? Did you bother to notice there were other verses critical to its understanding, or did you just pull out your wetted ink stamp and slap Jesus =YHWH all over the words of God as a typical Trinitarian does, as they attempt to know scripture and they do not?

How can you want to really know scripture, when you are mesmerized, reoccupied in a desperate attempt to make all scripture say YHWH = his Son for your non-biblical derived and non-descript triune god, and not even bother with you typical AWOL HS person many times, as if it/he does not exist.

(Luk 9:46) And there arose a dispute among them, which of them was the greatest.
(Luk 9:47) But when Jesus saw the reasoning of their heart, he took a little child and set him by his side,
(Luk 9:48) and said to them: Whoever shall receive this little child in my name receives me, and whoever shall receive me, receives Him that sent me. For he that is least among you all, the same is great.

Now read all 3 verses @DavidTree so as believer you cannot know or perceive the minds and heart of these folks, on this important subject of the Kingdom? I can!

They did not understand the Kingdom, period? They thought that the Kingdom would have folks in ranks of importance etc. They did not know that the Spirit of God would be within them equally and form one Body of Christ.....

So you as a son of man, as a believer, cannot know with this openly given pre-requisite information that Yahshua was not YHWH? Yahshua learned all about the Kingdom over the years from his Father, and therefore could perceive the err in their minds. Easy to do.

No, it is laughable to say there is proof here that Yahshua was even omniscient as @Fred is now raving about the Son of man that he is YHWH again.

Bonkers I tell, both off your rockers!
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Get off your rocker grandpa - you need some exercise and much needed oxygen to the brain

Start with this:

Matthew 24:30
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Zechariah 14:1-5
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

@APAK WHO WILL COME???
 
Fred said:
Keep up APAK.

You have nowhere near the knowledge of men's hearts that Christ did.
Get this straight: He FULLY knows all of them.
You don't fully know any of them.

Massive difference.
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Correct because He was God He knew the very thoughts and heart of Everyman . Only God knows every thought of man and their hearts.
 
APAK said:
Slow down a bit Fred, you did not understand my words. I never said I knew my own own heart, Stop adding in stuff that's not there again. Just ask me first if you please.

I intended on saying as I said it. that what Christ did I can even do as a believer today, discern the hearts of (some) men - not my own heart,,,,etc. And no pride here at all Fred. The glory goes to the Father, it is all the Father's Spirit working within me as it did in his Son when he spoke those verses of scripture.

And @DavidTree you mean to tell me you cannot perceive or know the hearts of another at times especially given clear entering arguments as Jesus was giving before he spoke/replied to his audience, of that one scripture verse you tossed at me? I can also perceive their hearts in this scenario, indeed given this same situation as another son of man with the Spirit of YHWH as my source.

Let's look at this verse @DavidTree , can you explain its context...of Luke 9:47? Did you bother to notice there were other verses critical to its understanding, or did you just pull out your wetted ink stamp and slap Jesus =YHWH all over the words of God as a typical Trinitarian does, as they attempt to know scripture and they do not?

How can you want to really know scripture, when you are mesmerized, reoccupied in a desperate attempt to make all scripture say YHWH = his Son for your non-biblical derived and non-descript triune god, and not even bother with you typical AWOL HS person many times, as if it/he does not exist.

(Luk 9:46) And there arose a dispute among them, which of them was the greatest.
(Luk 9:47) But when Jesus saw the reasoning of their heart, he took a little child and set him by his side,
(Luk 9:48) and said to them: Whoever shall receive this little child in my name receives me, and whoever shall receive me, receives Him that sent me. For he that is least among you all, the same is great.

Now read all 3 verses @DavidTree so as believer you cannot know or perceive the minds and heart of these folks, on this important subject of the Kingdom? I can!

They did not understand the Kingdom, period? They thought that the Kingdom would have folks in ranks of importance etc. They did not know that the Spirit of God would be within them equally and form one Body of Christ.....

So you as a son of man, as a believer, cannot know with this openly given pre-requisite information that Yahshua was not YHWH? Yahshua learned all about the Kingdom over the years from his Father, and therefore could perceive the err in their minds. Easy to do.

No, it is laughable to say there is proof here that Yahshua was even omniscient as @Fred is now raving about the Son of man that he is YHWH again.

Bonkers I tell, both off your rockers!
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Your ending statement: "Bonkers I tell, both off your rockers!"

This does not offend me AND i got a good laugh from it - thank you

So i hope my opening statement in Post #84 was equally accepted by you.

i am waiting for your answer to the question granted to you in Post #84
 
APAK said:
Scripture clearly describes that the Son of the Father God as a created human being who was raised to glory into heaven by his Father, who is his God and ours.
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post those scriptures that ... "Clearly describes that the Son of the Father God as a created human being"

101G.
 
DavidTree said:
Your ending statement: "Bonkers I tell, both off your rockers!"

This does not offend me AND i got a good laugh from it - thank you

So i hope my opening statement in Post #84 was equally accepted by you.

i am waiting for your answer to the question granted to you in Post #84
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You may ask all you want and when you want David, however you are not owed an answer in all honesty until you can explain the verses you listed leading up to your question. And I'm not waiting of course because you do not understand this scripture and thus will not respond.
 
101G said:
post those scriptures that ... "Clearly describes that the Son of the Father God as a created human being"

101G.
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I have already did 101G if you carefully examine my posts. I tell you what, you show me scripture where Jesus is clearly described as being 'unmade' or not created as a human being. thx
 
APAK said:
You may ask all you want and when you want David, however you are not owed an answer in all honesty until you can explain the verses you listed leading up to your question. And I'm not waiting of course because you do not understand this scripture and thus will not respond.
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God desires for us to make straight the paths of the LORD.

Not answering the question exposes the dilemma of holding unto false doctrine.

i am not against you but for you as the correct and obvious answer to the question is the Straight Path to Truth.

Peace and REST in the Truth of the Word that was God from the Beginning
 
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APAK said:
I have already did 101G if you carefully examine my posts. I tell you what, you show me scripture where Jesus is clearly described as being 'unmade' or not created as a human being. thx
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no you didn't. now as for unmade, sure
Scripture #1. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Scripture #2. Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

Scripture #3 John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

just for starters.

101G.
 
to all.
the Word of God is Clear, LISTEN, John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

if the "Lord" Jesus is not of this WORLD, then he's NOT CREATED. now, there are only three entitles.... A. God, B. angels and C. humans. so, being not of this world, human is eliminated. and if one say angelic, then post scripture where an angel created and made all things..... please don't go the JW route. well now, that leave only God. now we're getting to the truth. if one say God has a God, as some Unitarities states, then they have two Gods. which is polytheism.

now if the Lord Jesus is before any flesh, for he is "NOT of this WORLD", then he is "Spirit" as Phil. 2:6 clearly states. now the task before us is this. HOW IS GOD IN HEAVEN AS FATHER/LORD, AND BE ON EARTH IN FLESH AS THE Lord/Son, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

JESUS, while in flesh on Earth, he is in Heaven at the same time.

101G.
 
DavidTree said:
Awesome

And who is our Heavenly Mother?
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Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26).

Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: "Mother" appears in Gal. 4:26, where the church as Jerusalem is called the spiritual mother of believers (Mother, page 457).
 
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Fred said:
Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26).

Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: "Mother" appears in Gal. 4:26, where the church as Jerusalem is called the spiritual mother of believers (Mother, page 457).
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AWESOME

i SEE that you know your Holy Scriptures of Truth

Thank You for sharing
 
APAK said:
Claim: The Son of God did not pre-exist before his birth, he is not eternal or not God....
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Wrong-

The Johannine revelation used an imperfect tense ‘was’, classifying the existence of the Logos as an eternal one in the past –that came to no ceasing— that is, before creationism.

His existence never came to an end from eternity past even through the creationism.

The eternal life essence of Jesus shared zoe with God the Father. Simply put, zoe means ‘God’s kind of life.’ Now, as the Logos, Christ is: ‘the totality of God’s mind, will and thought.’ How can any entity be thus and exist in the classification of an object of creationism? Verse three in its unequivocalness, categorically says “all things were made by him.” If it says, “and without him was not anything made that was made,” does the spirit of limpidity not pour forth the revelatory facticity that nothing, absolutely, did create this enigmatic Personage, Jesus Christ?
 

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