Introducing the Son of (his) Father God - John 1:18, 20:17b

APAK said:
@Fred
(Heb 1:10) And: You, Lord, in the beginning did lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands

(Heb 2:7) You made him a little lower than the angels, You crowned him with glory and honour and did set him over the works of Your hands;
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Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Hebrews 1:10
And,
You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Which confirms the "us" refers to more than one Person.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.


This is perhaps why concerning Hebrews 1:10 (and 2:7) the following is affirmed:
BDAG (3rd Edition): κύριος is also used in ref. to Jesus...Hb 1:10 (cp. Ps 101:26) (kyrios)
BDAG (3rd Edition): The hand of deity means divine power...
α. As Creator...Hebrews 1:10; 2:7 (cheir, page 1082)

= Jesus is the Creator.
 
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(Mic 5:1) Bethlehem the Birthplace of the Promised Ruler
Now you shall gather yourself in troops, daughter of troops. He has laid siege against us. They will strike the judge of Israel with a rod on the cheek.
(Mic 5:2) But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, being small among the clans of Judah, out of you one will come forth to Me that is to be the ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
(Mic 5:3) Therefore He will abandon them until the time that she who is in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his brothers will return to the children of Israel.
(Mic 5:4) He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, in the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: and they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.

These verses above reveals that Jesus did not pre-incarnate or pre-exist....

Verse 2 must not be interpreted as a stand-alone verse or isolation of others. The context and understanding of it are written in the next few verses.

Jesus’ birth and his life born in Bethlehem was known from ancient times; ‘whose going forth are from old,’ from before the start of creation, in God’s mind, besides being known since the days of King David.

Jesus came from the smallest and insignificant of villages in Judah - became the true ruler of Israel. Incidentally, King David was also born there.

The expression ‘whose going forth are from old,’ does not mean Jesus was alive in eternity past, before creation, or even existing is some other form before he was born.

The expression ‘whose going forth’ can also be translated as ‘whose going out.’ Or whose origin(s) are (KNOWN) from old.’

Another way of stating this portion of verse 2: Whose human birth (coming out of the womb), his place of origin, his beginning, Jesus being born out of Bethlehem, was known from ancient times by God and at least from King David’s time.

Jesus’ birthplace Bethlehem, the future ruler of Israel was already known!

Verse 3: God will abandon Judah until Jesus’ birth. Then, or after that time, the rest or remnant of Judah and Israel, of all believers in Christ shall return to God.

Verse 4: Then Jesus as Yahshua (The Father saves) shall actively (‘stand’) care for, protect and spiritually grow his people with the strength of his Father, God - YHWH by his holy spirit. The name Yahshua will be known throughout the earth.

See also Matthew 2:6 and John 7: 41-42 as they echo these verses 2-4 of Micah.

Update to the OP as a table..

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Another update ...

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Resurrected from the dead to immortality and others to follow him as the new creation:

(1Co 15:21) For since by a man came death, by a man came also the resurrection of the dead.

The 1st born from the dead of the new creation and the ruler and light to the future Body, and the firstfruits of those still asleep:

(Col 1:15) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; so that in all things he might have the pre-eminence.
(1Co 15:20) But now has Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
(Rev 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,
(Act 26:23) That the Christ must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.

His Father through his Spirit raised him to new life:
(Col 2:12) Having been buried with him in baptism, by which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

He was foreknown before the 1st man was revealed to us in the 1st century, at the end of times, the then end of the present age :
(1Pe 1:20) He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

He is today building with the Father's power, the foundation and the Kingdom, and for the new heavens and new earth:
(Isa 51:16) I have put My words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of My hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, ‘You are My people’.
 
Updated Table

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He builds the new creation, the Body, the Kingdom, New Jerusalem the new heavens and new earth

(Isa 51:16) I have put My words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of My hand, that I may plant(fix) the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, ‘You are My people’.

(Isa 65:17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

---------------------------

He was the only man born of a virgin mother

(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

(Luk 1:35) And the angel answered and said to her: The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you. Therefore also the holy thing which is begotten within you shall be called the Son of God.

---------------------------------
He was the genetic equivalent to the 1st Son of God, Adam

(Luk 3:38) the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
--------------------------------

He was the only man called the last Adam

(1Co 15:45) So also it is written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

---------------------------------

He is the only man who died as the sacrifice for our sins
Heb 10: 12-14; 1 John 4:10

(Heb 10:12) But he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

(Heb 10:13) from that time forward expectantly waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet.

(Heb 10:14) For by one offering he has perfected for ever those that are sanctified.

(1Jn 4:10) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

------------------------------------------------------------------

He was appointed Son of God with power (Father’s Spirit) after his resurrection
Romans 1:4

(Rom 1:4) " who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord, "

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He is called lord or Adon(i) for sovereign ruler – not YHWH or Adonai or LORD
Psalms 110:1

(Psa 110:1) Yahweh says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. (NEV)

(Psa 110:1) A declaration of YHWH to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand,Until I make Your enemies Your footstool.” (LSV)

(Psa 110:1) Adonai says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” (TLV)

(Psa 110:1) A declaration of Yahweh to my lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."(LEB)

(Psa 110:1) God sayd vnto my Lorde: sit thou on my right hande, vntyll I make thyne enemies thy footestoole. (Bishops)
 
APAK said:
Updated Table

View attachment 324

He builds the new creation, the Body, the Kingdom, New Jerusalem the new heavens and new earth

(Isa 51:16) I have put My words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of My hand, that I may plant(fix) the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, ‘You are My people’.

(Isa 65:17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

---------------------------

He was the only man born of a virgin mother

(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

(Luk 1:35) And the angel answered and said to her: The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you. Therefore also the holy thing which is begotten within you shall be called the Son of God.

---------------------------------
He was the genetic equivalent to the 1st Son of God, Adam

(Luk 3:38) the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
--------------------------------

He was the only man called the last Adam

(1Co 15:45) So also it is written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

---------------------------------

He is the only man who died as the sacrifice for our sins
Heb 10: 12-14; 1 John 4:10

(Heb 10:12) But he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

(Heb 10:13) from that time forward expectantly waiting until his enemies be made the footstool for his feet.

(Heb 10:14) For by one offering he has perfected for ever those that are sanctified.

(1Jn 4:10) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

------------------------------------------------------------------

He was appointed Son of God with power (Father’s Spirit) after his resurrection
Romans 1:4

(Rom 1:4) " who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord, "

-------------------------------

He is called lord or Adon(i) for sovereign ruler – not YHWH or Adonai or LORD
Psalms 110:1

(Psa 110:1) Yahweh says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. (NEV)

(Psa 110:1) A declaration of YHWH to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand,Until I make Your enemies Your footstool.” (LSV)

(Psa 110:1) Adonai says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” (TLV)

(Psa 110:1) A declaration of Yahweh to my lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."(LEB)

(Psa 110:1) God sayd vnto my Lorde: sit thou on my right hande, vntyll I make thyne enemies thy footestoole. (Bishops)
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John 1:18 actually works against your position as a unitarian. Jesus also says no one has seen the Father nor heard His voice.
 
Fred said:
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Adonai is referred to God but Adoni to human superiors.

  • Adoni — ref. to men: my lord, my master [see Ps. 110:1]
  • Adonai — ref. to God…Lord (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, under adon [= lord]).
“The form ADONI (‘my lord’), a royal title (I Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title ADONAI (‘my Lord’) used of Yahweh.” “ADONAI — the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adonai [with short vowel] = my lords” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “Lord,” p. 157).
 
APAK said:
Adonai is referred to God but Adoni to human superiors.

  • Adoni — ref. to men: my lord, my master [see Ps. 110:1]
  • Adonai — ref. to God…Lord (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, under adon [= lord]).
“The form ADONI (‘my lord’), a royal title (I Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title ADONAI (‘my Lord’) used of Yahweh.” “ADONAI — the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adonai [with short vowel] = my lords” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “Lord,” p. 157).
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civic said:
John 1:18 actually works against your position as a unitarian. Jesus also says no one has seen the Father nor heard His voice.
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Jumping ahead....I have not got to that point yet civic...soon...thanks I guess now I will have to accommodate a new row for it then...
 
New update:



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Added in three more rows:

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Comments welcome of course...
 

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New update:

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He represents and reveals the perfect human image of the mind and voice/expression of his Father God.

The word was imaged, duplicated, expressed through a human being

John 1:14a The word became human....

Col 1:15a who is the image of the invisible God,....

(Joh 1:18) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made Him known.

(Joh 8:28b) .... and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

(Joh 14:9b) He that has seen me has seen the Father. How do you ask: Show us the Father?

(Joh 15:24b) .... but now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father.

(2Co 4:4b) ... the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn.

(Php 2:6a) Who, though being in the mental image of God,

(Heb 1:3a) Who being the brightness of His glory and the exact image of His person,

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He was/is subservient to his Father God and equal in purpose of the same mind

(Joh 5:17b) ....My Father works even until now and therefore I also work.

(Joh 8:18) I am he that testifies of myself; and the Father that sent me testifies of me.

(Joh 8:28b) .... and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

(Joh 8:38) I speak the things which I have seen with my Father, and you also do the things which you heard from your father.

(Joh 10:15) Even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(Joh 10:18b) .........I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. This command I received from my Father.

(Joh 10:25b) ....The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me.

(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.

(Joh 10:38b) ... believe the works; that you may know and understand, that the Father is in me and I in the Father.

(Joh 12:49) For I spoke not from myself, but the Father that sent me, He has given me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.

(Joh 12:50) And I know that His commandment is everlasting life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me: So I speak.

(Php 2:6) Who, though being in the mental image of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

(Php 2:7) but poured himself out, taking the mental attitude of a servant, and was the made just the same as all ordinary men.

(Php 2:8) And being perceived as a normal man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

(Act 3:26) To you first, God, having raised up His servant, sent him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from your sins.

---------------------------------------------

He became l(L)ord, of both the dead and living only to/for the glory of his Father God

(Php 2:11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Joh 20:28) Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.
(Act 2:36) Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain, that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. People are Baptized
(Rom 14:9) " For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. "
(1Co 8:6) yet to us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we are everything to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sake of whom are all things, and we exist for His sake.

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Numbers 14:22- Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

God was tempted, Jesus was tempted.

hope this helps !!!
 
APAK said:
Claim: The Son of God did not pre-exist before his birth, he is not eternal or not God....
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was = was [already pre-existent]. Creation is not mentioned till Joh_1:3. "The Word had no beginning". See Joh_1:3; Joh_17:5. 1Jn_1:1. Eph_1:4. Pro_8:23. Psa_90:2. Compare Joh_8:58. Not the same "was "as in Joh_1:14.

How are you going to get around this?
 
Fred said:
The Lord in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is the same "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 10:21-22, 26.

This demonstrates Jesus is YHWH.
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How so ridiculous Fred. I cannot believe you wrote this as your conclusion, seriously..

You conclusion is preposterous indeed. So what if the same Christ is the same 'lord' in both scripture passages and there are many more like it?. How does that make the Son, God?! Explain yourself. It only demonstrates your desperate attempt to make the Son of God, God the Son just because the Son was make to be the Lord by his God. And I believe you do not understand this crucial point at all. He was MADE a lord by his God, period!

You do not understand why the Father made the Son a Lord, and a very important one indeed. I believe this is your major blind spot.


Listen, again regarding 1 Cor 8:6....

This verse as all verses are connected and continue the thoughts of the author.

This verse as in the ones previous to it and afterwards do not remotely speak of 'all things' as in a Genesis creation, and definitely not by the Son of God if that was the context and case. I may have said this many times over some time and still folks persist and stamp on this verse that the Son of God is also, god the son. So ridiculous and never is this incredible conclusion explained at all, just stated without any qualification.

Again, this verse and its surrounding context speaks to the Body of Christ the church. God, the Father of all has provided all things necessary for the building up and the sustainment of the church via his Son. This is what verse 6 is saying, and nothing more.

Paul is speaking to his audience about food laws under the Law, And under grace, the church has not such laws, we are free to eat... And foods do not bring us closer to God. This was new for this audience to understand.

This verse 6 clearly speaks to the fact that Christians have but one God who is the final and initial source of all things, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the way or method by which God provided all these things to the Church.

(1Co 8:4) Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol has real existence and there is no God but one.

(1Co 8:5) For though there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are gods many and lords many,

(1Co 8:6) yet to us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we are everything to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sake of (because of... on account of) whom are all things, and we exist for His sake.

In verses 4b and 6a it stated there is only one God and he is the Father only. There is no Son of God spoke of here!

It cannot be any clearer to know that Jesus is not part of this equation at all, and is used by his Father as a means o his aims and regarding the Church.

If the doctrine of the Trinity is correct (and it's not), then this text can only be construed or see as confusing at best. Here was the ideal time in the text and opportunity to say, “for us there is only one God made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” or something similar, but, instead, Scripture tells us that only the Father is God. That should stand as conclusive evidence that Jesus is not God.
 
APAK said:
How so ridiculous Fred. I cannot believe you wrote this as your conclusion, seriously..

You conclusion is preposterous indeed. So what if the same Christ is the same 'lord' in both scripture passages and there are many more like it?.
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Paul quotes several OT texts about YHWH and applies them in reference to Jesus. Thus, proving Jesus is YHWH. In fact, Paul did so by contrasting the worship of idols and the worship of Jesus from OT texts about the worship of idols and the worship of YHWH. This connects to what the "one YHWH" of Deuteronomy 6:4 is ONLY to receive.

You have a very poor understanding who Jesus is.


By the way, what is really ridiculous is your refusal to even answer the question I asked you concerning whether or not the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer. You dodged this question twice!

You ran away and hid and continue to do so because your false jesus falls apart.
 
Fred said:
The passage above demonstrates the Lord Jesus is the Almighty.
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Seriously mistaken again Fred and you do not ever give up these illogical fanatical statements up
....only one verse here and you seize the opportunity to make this one verse its own context and its ending phrase the way you want to mold it into your way of thinking.

Remember, as the apostles already knew, that the Christ was made a Lord for us by his God, even Thomas knew this very well. You miss this point apparently. He knew who Yahshua was and his God, And he knew who made his Lord! They are different persons.

Again, again and again, Thomas without any doubt at this point, now realized his Lord, his Christ was truly resurrected from the dead by his God....my Lord and my God indeed! He acknowledged and distinguished both in one short statement and breath, in excitement. He never said that his Lord is now also his God. You are saying this for reasons unknown! That you need to prove Fred, in context, and you cannot ever do that I'm afraid.
 
APAK said:
my Lord and my God indeed! He acknowledged and distinguished both in one short statement and breath, in excitement. He never said that his Lord is now also his God. You are saying this for reasons unknown! That you need to prove Fred, in context, and you cannot ever do that I'm afraid.
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Just as Jesus is "my Lord" so too is He "my God."

Thomas answered and said unto Him (Jesus).

For your education:
1. BDAG (3rd Edition): Concerning John 20:28 states that theos "certainly refers to Christ" (theos, page 450).
2. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): the Risen Lord discloses Himself to Thomas, and the astonished disciple exclaims: ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou (Jn. 20:28). In Jn. 1:1 we have Christology: He is God in Himself. Here we have the revelation of Christ: He is God for believers (3:105-106, theos, Stauffer).
3. A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament: Of the Logos, who is declared to be ho theos, e.g. John 1:1...also in the exclamation of Thomas, John 20:28. - So Christ is called ho theos (theos, page 334).
4. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): Jn. 20:28 contains the unique affirmation of Thomas addressing the Risen Christ as God: "My Lord and my God [ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou]" (2:81, God, J. Schneider).
 

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