Eternal Security

Yes indeed! God The Holy Spirit provided the down payment or purchase price of our inheritance ... all the way until the redemption of the possession [that time at which every child of God attains to their glorified state in Heaven].

So let's look at the statement, "....all the way until the redemption of the possession" I'd suggest however that you go on to make an unwarranted assumption....that is it's guaranteed without question you'll end up to as you put it to the glorified state. You've got your statement from Eph 1: 14

In the whole passage though in vs 7 it speaks of us having redemption through his blood but we see in Heb 10: 31 that if one chooses to show no value to the blood they are in a sense now going another direction . And verse 10 states at the end he'll gather together in one all things in Christ. Jesus told us in other places that we are to remain in him Jn 15:4 and warns us we are to continue in him . Jn 8:31 If we don't continue IN HIM then how can we be one who he'll gather?

So you've put a focus on all the way to and the whole journey has been paid for. Perhaps this might help? One buys a ticket for you to be on a bus. It's guaranteed to take you from A to B. Does that mean that the bus doors are locked and you can't get out? No. If you choose to get off the bus (or you don't choose to remain or abide) doesn't matter how guaranteed what the ticket will do is. You chose not to remain. You choose not to continue.



 
Could any one of us mere humans qualify to make such a provision? ... absolutely not. So how is it that there are some [Loss of Salvation Advocates] who claim that when a child of God falls short of receiving their glorified state in Heaven that the blame is to be be placed on the child of God?
In my last post #761 I made the analogy one can make the full provision for you to have a bus journey. When they provided full provision they provided full provision. Doesn't mean though you can't choose to leave the bus.

Just to mention to as you put in brackets above, (Loss of Salvation Advocates) That does impact the mind a certain way as one sees those words. Just know ones' who don't believe on OSAS no matter what aren't pushing to want to see anyone not saved, but rather that it is possible for one loose it.

In one sense one not believing in OSAS could actually be the one to make another secure so they don't loose their salvation. Another might become ever so careful to make sure that they remain and continue rather then think they can do the opposite and God's got this. Words can't describe what a dangerous doctrine that can be. God does have this our salvation, and it can be secure but what is each one doing? Are some leaving the bus?
the entire price of our salvation was paid for by the finished atoning work of Jesus Christ alone ... from start to finish!
Of course it was. Recall my bus analogy.....but are you choosing to get off the bus between the start and the finish? That's the real question.
Philippians 1:6, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".
For sure. God will always seek to encourage his saint and work the work of sanctification within them if they're willing. That requires deciding to remain and abide in him.
This is certainly not to say that the child of God plays no role whatsoever here
OK so I think you know this to be true and if the child of God has a role to play then the child of God has a role to play. A role to play in what? A role to play in insuring they reach the blessed end result you spoke of above to attain the glorious state of heaven. If they don't play their role then they're not playing their role.....no positive end result.
 
Yes indeed! God The Holy Spirit provided the down payment or purchase price of our inheritance ... all the way until the redemption of the possession [that time at which every child of God attains to their glorified state in Heaven]. Could any one of us mere humans qualify to make such a provision? ... absolutely not. So how is it that there are some [Loss of Salvation Advocates] who claim that when a child of God falls short of receiving their glorified state in Heaven that the blame is to be be placed on the child of God?

First of all, there is no "blame" here, there simply will be nobody to blame in their hypothetical scenario since every child of God is guaranteed to attain the promise [therefore, there certainly is no placing of the blame on God either ---it's a "no-fail" scenario].

Secondly, since no child of God could possibly qualify to provide the down payment, it only follows that no child of God could possibly provide the necessary "balance" needed for their ultimate redemption ... the entire price of our salvation was paid for by the finished atoning work of Jesus Christ alone ... from start to finish!

Philippians 1:6, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ".

This is certainly not to say that the child of God plays no role whatsoever here [i.e. - that this wonderful promise is absolutely unconditional], but instead is to emphasize the fact that salvation can only be attained through the sole condition of placing their faith in Christ's substitutionary atoning work alone.

That lone condition of entering the narrow gate was met [past tense] by every child of God. In other words, at the time of the new-birth experience [John 3:3], every child of God entered into "the narrow gate" of salvation [Matthew 7:13-14], and consequently were assured to attain to the ultimate redemption of the body!
What good are all the warning passages written to believers in several NT books for if not to warn believers ?

We know unbelievers are already condemned, not saved and have no salvation to lose. It only makes sense if those warning passages are written to believers, those who are saved for them to repent. Think of Jesus warnings to all the churches ( believers )in Revelation 2-3.
 
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The lone condition is present tense, active, believing.
Personally I have been on both sides of the fence. And to be perfectly honest both sides can make good arguments from scripture. So I'm not dogmatic on the issue as God only knows who are His and who are not as He sees the heart of the man. I believe we will all be surprised when we get to heaven to see who is there and who is not.
 
What good are all the warning passages written to believers in several NT books for if not to warn believers ?

We know unbelievers are already condemned, not saved and have no salvation to lose. It only makes sense if those warning passages are written to believers, those who are saved for them to repent. Think of Jesus warnings to all the churches ( believers )in Revelation 2-3.

Are you implying that some genuine believers will not heed the various warning scattered throughout scripture? In other words, it's hard for me to read your true position on the subject of the eternal security of the believer. Here's a question that I ask that provides me with the answer as to a person's position on the matter ... it's a simple "yes" or "no" answer :

Do you believe that some genuine blood bought believers will, subsequent to being justified [legally pronounced "not guilty"] by God Himself, lose/forfeit their eternal life/salvation, and consequently perish eternally in the Lake of Fire?
 
To ask for forgiveness without repentance is meaningless! He is always ready to forgive, but repentance is the key. Jesus’s word to the woman caught in adultery come to mind, “Go and sin no more!”


Doug
It would seem to me if you had some repetitive pet sin that you're asking God to forgive you for, you would be repenting. How successful you are is another matter. That's where the 70 times 70 comes in. If you believed you asked for forgiveness and that God had forgiven your sin and cleansed you of all unrighteousness, then as time goes by you find yourself caught up in the same sin, that doesn't mean you didn't repent the first time.

Confession and Repentance


Confession invites the forgiveness and cleansing of God on to our broken lives, but it is repentance that ultimately changes the course of our recovery over the long haul.

Repentance is the process of turning away from anything opposed to truth. Repentance provides the balance to confession. We confess to agree with truth, and then we repent to turn away from the opposing thought, belief, or action that prompted the confession. Through repentance we train our minds and hearts to focus on that which leads to life and freedom: truth. And, as we continually turn toward truth, we experience the power of God unleashed on the false thoughts, beliefs, and actions that seek to pull us again into darkness, shame, and despair.

As for John 8:11, Jesus commands an adulterous woman to “Go and sin no more. Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection.

So when Jesus says, “Go and sin no more,” He is not expecting that this woman is going to leave her sinful flesh at the door and never be tempted again. He is telling her to say no to the sin that dwells in her and stop the desire from being conceived; stop the temptation from becoming sin.

It should be the goal of all of us to “sin no more,” the truth is that, while we are in the flesh, we will still stumble (1 John 1:8).

 
Are you implying that some genuine believers will not heed the various warning scattered throughout scripture? In other words, it's hard for me to read your true position on the subject of the eternal security of the believer. Here's a question that I ask that provides me with the answer as to a person's position on the matter ... it's a simple "yes" or "no" answer :

Do you believe that some genuine blood bought believers will, subsequent to being justified [legally pronounced "not guilty"] by God Himself, lose/forfeit their eternal life/salvation, and consequently perish eternally in the Lake of Fire?
I’ll address this after our mornings Mens discipleship group that ends around 9am this morning PST. We start at 6am and I’m prepping. :)
 
What good are all the warning passages written to believers in several NT books for if not to warn believers ?

We know unbelievers are already condemned, not saved and have no salvation to lose. It only makes sense if those warning passages are written to believers, those who are saved for them to repent. Think of Jesus warnings to all the churches ( believers )in Revelation 2-3.

Salvation is secure. The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to fulfill His promise to preserve ALL of His children.
 
There's always the right way in the wrong way to do something. I think the Bible teaches us the right way which is God's way. It also shows the results of doing things the right way.

On the other hand there's the wrong way, That's the way our flesh wants to do things. Remember Rocky and Bullwinkle when Bullwinkle was going to do his magic hat trick? Rocky told them that trick never works? Same with the flesh that trick never works.

Warning signs are a good thing. Warning versus in the Bible are even better.
 
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In 1 Corinthians 6:11 we are told, "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.".... All those who have been justified (past tense) are also clearly said to have been sanctified (past tense)....

I think, perhaps, a reminder of Greek grammar is in order here. Justified and sanctified are Aorist tense words, which refers primarily to completed action relative to the point of writing, which infers “past tense”. But the important aspect is not the time factor, but the nature of the action.

Aorist means “completed action’. It does not mean that it necessarily stays complete, but only that at the point of reference it was completed.

The Perfect tense means that the action completed in the “past” is still, at the point of writing, still completed or in effect. What it does not say is that it necessarily will be in the future. Only the future tense says anything about what can or will be.

So yes, justifying and sanctifying were completed acts, but necessity of this remaining true cannot be deduced by the Greek Aorist, which appears to be what you are asserting.

Doug
 
Eternal Security ... Are you truly secure in Christ?

Have you ever experienced the assurance and security that you have been accepted as righteous in the sight of God, knowing that you will receive a Heavenly inheritance? Well, this is precisely what has been offered and promised in the gospel to all who have placed their faith in Christ’s substitutionary atoning work on their behalf.

2 Corinthians 5:21,”For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

The above scripture has been called “The Great Exchange” – God reconciled sinful man to Himself by making His sinless Son the sin bearer and dying in the sinner’s place. Jesus Christ paid the death penalty for the sinner so that God could set the sinner free and declare him righteous in His holy presence. Moreover, He did more than just forgive us our sins; He imputed the perfect righteousness of His Son to us. Justification, in the gospel sense, is God’s free forgiveness of a sinner, accepting him as righteous through the righteousness of Christ received by faith.

Galatians 3:10-13,”For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree).”

Galatians 2:21,”I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Hebrews 10:14,” For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”

The sobering question now becomes, “Have you ever truly placed your trust in these paramount gospel truths? All those who have been justified are now in the process of sanctification; and all those who are presently in that process are said to be perfected (positionally) in Christ forever – that is eternally! 1 Corinthians 6:11,”And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

The anxieties of those who are trusting in their own righteousness or good works [to one degree or another] can be mainly [if not entirely] be attributed to their inadequate apprehensions [due to either ignorance or rejection] of the nature, value, and efficacy of the remedy provided for them in Christ’s atonement. Within them there exists a latent feeling that there is still something that remains to be done or suffered by themselves in the way of satisfying the justice, averting the wrath, and propitiating or appeasing the favor of their righteous Judge.

I say “to one degree or another”, because there are some who have erred to such a degree, that they have failed altogether to receive “The Great Exchange.”- they are yet dead in their sins. It simply doesn’t get any more serious than this my friends. One of the vital evidences of a person falling into this category is the absence of ever possessing the assurance that they have been accepted as righteous in God’s sight and will receive a future Heavenly inheritance.

This is certainly not to say that those in the other category [those who have actually experienced the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit] will never have doubts or fears, or will possess an unwavering assurance subsequent to their conversion. The critical distinction here is this groups’ initial knowing that their sins have been forgiven, and that they will receive their Heavenly inheritance.

Here is another very important question to ponder. “Were we simply put in a position of possibly or potentially gaining an entrance into Heaven when we believed on Jesus’ blood sacrifice at the point of our regeneration?.. or was a future entrance into Heaven actualized and realized when we experienced our new birth?” It's very plain to see that the latter is the gospel truth ... it's truly the Good News that the Creator of the universe legitimately offers to all. Also, since the eternal security of the believer was purchased by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary's cross, surely it lies at the very heart of the gospel message!

Will you be a believer tomorrow morning?

Some answer this question by saying, “Yes, of course I’ll still be a believer, “once saved , always saved”. Well, what exactly do they mean by that? There are many who claim that regardless of whether we or anyone else wakes up as a believer tomorrow morning is largely irrelevant to whether they will spend eternity with Christ. The only thing that matters is that at some point in their lives they 'asked Jesus into their hearts'.

In other words, the decisive issue has nothing whatsoever to do with whether they actually persevere in the faith by faith, but whether they ever professed to believe in the Christian religion. If they did, they're in ... if they didn’t, they're out …. even if they were to perpetually renounce their faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior at some future point in time, or shamelessly live a lifestyle characterized by selfish, fleshly desires, or have never experienced the direct witness of the Holy Spirit that they will enter Heaven one day [per Romans 8:16].

This perspective merely offers a false sense of eternal security, it's indeed a counterfeit version of “OSAS”. It's one that clearly denies that the Holy Spirit will perform an inward transformational work in each and every person who places their trust in Christ's atoning work. And, because the one true perspective of the eternal security of the believer is often obscured and misrepresented by that counterfeit version, I prefer to call the eternal security of the believer by the acronym “OJAJ” [Once Justified, Always Justified] … it’s also, theologically speaking, much more clear and precise.

Others [of the Arminian variety] insist that there’s simply no guarantee that anyone will wake up as a believer tomorrow morning. Most will, but some likely won’t. Before tomorrow they may very well cross 'the line of no return'. They may sin so grievously and 'miss the cut', resulting in their cutting off from the saving grace of God; or, that they very well may abandon Jesus by failing to continue trusting in Christ's atoning work to save them. Therefore, according to their mindset, they may very well wake up tomorrow morning discovering that God has likewise abandoned them [although by that time they won’t care].

The scriptural evidence sides with neither position. All those who were genuinely regenerated by the Holy Spirit in the past [whether days or decades ago] will most assuredly wake up tomorrow morning being believers, yet being fully justified in the eyes of God; the God in whom they have placed their trust, will preserve them in their faith. They will never renounce Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they will never shamelessly or permanently return to a lifestyle dedicated to selfish ambitions and the sinful indulgences of their flesh.

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim. 2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in the faith by faith.

Jude 1:1-2,”Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:”

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24,” Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who will also do it.”

If you know that you are in fact a child of God [Romans 8:16], then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said, “perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement.” The necessary conditions/requirements/fruits/works mentioned throughout scripture will be manifested and produced in all true believers by the Holy Spirit. They will exist as the inevitable by-product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature/heart miraculously delivered at the new birth (John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5).

Many have greatly underestimated, and failed to grasp the magnitude of the renewing, regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, and His radical transformational effect upon the believer’s nature.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21,”Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

What is the condition of renewal? ‘If any man be in Christ’-how distinctly that implies something more than human in Paul’s conception of Christ. It implies personal union with Him, so that He is the very element or atmosphere in which we live. And that union is brought about by faith in Him.

How does such a state of union with Christ make a man a new creation? It gives a new aim and center for our lives. Then we live not unto ourselves; then everything is different and looks so, for the center is shifted. That union introduces a constant reference to Him and contemplation of His death for us, it leads to self-abnegation.

It puts all life under the influence of a new love. ‘The love of Christ constraineth.’ As is a man’s love, so is his life. The mightiest devolution is to excite a new love, by which old loves and tastes are expelled. ‘A new affection’ has ‘expulsive power,’ as the new sap rising in the springtime pushes off the lingering withered leaves. So union with Him meets the difficulty arising from inclination still hankering after evil. The new love gives a new and mighty motive for obedience.

That union breaks the terrible chain that binds us to the past. ‘All died.’ The past is broken as much as if we were dead. It is broken by the great act of forgiveness. Sin holds men by making them feel as if what has been must be-an awful entail of evil. In Christ we die to our former self.

That union brings a new divine power to work in us. ‘I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.’ It sets us in a new world which yet is the old. All things are changed if we are changed. They are the same old things, but seen in a new light, used for new purposes, disclosing new relations and powers. Earth becomes a school and discipline for heaven. The world is different to a blind man when cured, or to a deaf one,-there are new sights for the one, new sounds for the other. All this is true in the measure in which we live in union with Christ.

Ezekiel 36:26-28,”And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

This wonderful promise to the nation of Israel was cut at Calvary, and the wonderful promise to give His people a new heart and put a new spirit within is fulfilled in the life of (all) who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Savior of their soul and the Mediator for their sins. < What Does Ezekiel 36:26 Mean? >

Hebrews 8:10,”For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
< Heb 8:10 Cross References (34 Verses) >

Romans 8:30,”Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

All those who have genuinely been justified through a new birth experience will be glorified [they will receive a Heavenly inheritance].

John 10:26-28,”But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

Note that Jesus said His [genuine] sheep follow Him ... rather than some will and some won’t follow Him, ... or that some will start following Him, but some will not continue following Him.
 
Personally I have been on both sides of the fence. And to be perfectly honest both sides can make good arguments from scripture. So I'm not dogmatic on the issue as God only knows who are His and who are not as He sees the heart of the man. I believe we will all be surprised when we get to heaven to see who is there and who is not.
I would tend to agree, though the very possibility that it could happen is sufficient to negate the necessity of eternal security in the sense of OSAS or PoS.

You have rightly noted that the warnings passages are meaningless if absolute security is true.

Doug
 
Eternal Security ... Are you truly secure in Christ?


Note that Jesus said His [genuine] sheep follow Him ... rather than some will and some won’t follow Him, ... or that some will start following Him, but some will not continue following Him.
Sheep are not known for being real bright and sometimes they wander off. That's why they need a shepherd. The good news is Jesus The Good Shepherd leaves the 99 and goes and gets that one stray sheep. He'll never leave us nor forsake us.
 
I think, perhaps, a reminder of Greek grammar is in order here. Justified and sanctified are Aorist tense words, which refers primarily to completed action relative to the point of writing, which infers “past tense”. But the important aspect is not the time factor, but the nature of the action.

Aorist means “completed action’. It does not mean that it necessarily stays complete, but only that at the point of reference it was completed.

The Perfect tense means that the action completed in the “past” is still, at the point of writing, still completed or in effect. What it does not say is that it necessarily will be in the future. Only the future tense says anything about what can or will be.

So yes, justifying and sanctifying were completed acts, but necessity of this remaining true cannot be deduced by the Greek Aorist, which appears to be what you are asserting.

Doug

Agreed
 
I would tend to agree, though the very possibility that it could happen is sufficient to negate the necessity of eternal security in the sense of OSAS or PoS.

You have rightly noted that the warnings passages are meaningless if absolute security is true.

Doug
Well the warning signs aren't meaningless regardless of eternal security. Some people will heed the warning signs and then one day find themselves breaking the speed limit.

Isn't a great we can discuss this stuff without being argumentative. I love it:love:
 
Personally I have been on both sides of the fence. And to be perfectly honest both sides can make good arguments from scripture. So I'm not dogmatic on the issue as God only knows who are His and who are not as He sees the heart of the man. I believe we will all be surprised when we get to heaven to see who is there and who is not.
I've heard that before, a long time ago and I was just thinking about it yesterday. I'm sure all the members of BAM will be there.:giggle:
 
So let's look at the statement, "....all the way until the redemption of the possession" I'd suggest however that you go on to make an unwarranted assumption....that is it's guaranteed without question you'll end up to as you put it to the glorified state. You've got your statement from Eph 1: 14

In the whole passage though in vs 7 it speaks of us having redemption through his blood but we see in Heb 10: 31 that if one chooses to show no value to the blood they are in a sense now going another direction . And verse 10 states at the end he'll gather together in one all things in Christ. Jesus told us in other places that we are to remain in him Jn 15:4 and warns us we are to continue in him . Jn 8:31 If we don't continue IN HIM then how can we be one who he'll gather?

So you've put a focus on all the way to and the whole journey has been paid for. Perhaps this might help? One buys a ticket for you to be on a bus. It's guaranteed to take you from A to B. Does that mean that the bus doors are locked and you can't get out? No. If you choose to get off the bus (or you don't choose to remain or abide) doesn't matter how guaranteed what the ticket will do is. You chose not to remain. You choose not to continue.

"If we don't continue IN HIM then how can we be one who he'll gather?"

Yes indeed, IF we don't continue IN HIM then we will not be one who will be gathered ... however, God promises to preserve all of His children :

Ezekiel 36:26-28,”And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ***And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.*** You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

This wonderful promise to the nation of Israel was cut at Calvary, and the wonderful promise to give His people a new heart and put a new spirit within is fulfilled in the life of (all) who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Savior of their soul and the Mediator for their sins. < What Does Ezekiel 36:26 Mean?
 
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