SOTERIOLOGY 101, Provisionism [ Calvinists of course can be excluded.]
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
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Two questions if i may.Total Depravity was not taught until augustine brought it into the church. That is just a historical fact in church history. The liberty or freedom of the will - human choice was the church belief prior to augustine. Even augustine taught it for 25 years until he changed his view.
And when we examine the human nature ofter referred to as the flesh we learn the following.
πᾶσα σάρξ (in imitation of the Hebrew כָּל־בָּשָׂר (Winers Grammar, 33)), every lving creature, 1 Peter 1:24; with οὐ preceding (qualifying the verb (Winers Grammar, § 26, 1; Buttmann, 121 (106))), no living creature, Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20; specifically, a man (ἄνθρωπος for בָּשָׂר, Genesis 6:13), generally with a suggestion of weakness, frailty, mortality: Sir. 28:5; ἐν τῷ Θεῷ ἤλπισα, οὐ φοβηθήσομαι τί ποιήσει μοι σάρξ, Psalm 55:5 (); cf. Jeremiah 17:5; ἐμνήσθη, ὅτι σάρξ εἰσιν, Psalm 77:39 (); σάρξ καί αἷμα, Ephesians 6:12; γενεά σαρκός καί αἵματος, ἡ μέν τελευτᾷ, ἑτέρα δέ γεννᾶται, Sir. 14:18; ὁ λόγος σάρξ ἐγένετο, entered into participation in human nature, John 1:14 (the apostle used σάρξ, not ἄνθρωπος, apparently in order to indicate that he who possessed supreme majesty did not shrink from union with extreme weakness); εὑρίσκειν τί κατά σάρκα, to attain to anything after the manner of a (weak) man, i. e. by the use of merely human powers, Romans 4:1 (for substance equivalent to ἐξ ἔργων in Romans 4:2); Hebraistically (see above), πᾶσα σάρξ, all men, Luke 3:6; John 17:2 (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 1 a.); Acts 2:17; Sir. 45:4; with οὐ or μή preceding (qualifying the verb (Winers Grammar, and Buttmann, as referred to above)), no man, no mortal, Romans 3:20; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Galatians 2:16. man as he appears, such as he presents himself to view, man's external appearance and condition: κατά σάρκα κρίνειν, John 8:15 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 583 (542)) (equivalent to κρίνειν κατ' ὄψιν, John 7:24); γινώσκειν or εἰδέναι τινα κατά σάρκα, 2 Corinthians 5:16; οἱ κατά σάρκα κυρίου (see κατά, II. 3 b.), Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22. universally, human nature, the soul included: ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκός ἁμαρτίας, in a visible form, like human nature which is subject to sin, Romans 8:3 (cf. ὁμοίωμα, b.); ἐν σαρκί ἔρχεσθαι, to appear clothed in human nature, 1 John 4:2 and Rec. in 3; 2 John 1:7 (the Epistle of Barnabas 5, 10 [ET]); φανερουσθαι, 1 Timothy 3:16 (the Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]; 6, 7 [ET]; 12, 10 [ET]); κεκοινωνηκεναι αἵματος καί σαρκός, Hebrews 2:14.
John 1:14- And the Word became flesh (sarx) and dwelled among us and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 2- Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Above we see the Son through the Incarnation became sarx( flesh). Hebrews 2 says He shared that same flesh we have and was like us in every way.
So if Jesus came in the flesh ( John 1:1, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7) then His humanity disproves the sin nature misnomer many teach and believe or one must admit Jesus was born with a fallen corrupt sinful nature and thus born a sinner like all men are born sinners according to the doctrine of Original Sin and TD. ( Total Depravity )
You see man in not born a sinner just like Jesus was not born a sinner. Jesus never sinned yet was born innocent like all men. We become sinners when we sin and become guilty of sin. This is why babies are innocent , not guilty until they sin.
The original curse from God below
Also adams curse was tending the ground in labor and the woman pain in labor. The curse was not a sin nature since they still communicated with God post fall. The same with Cain if he had a sin nature then why would God tell him sin creeps at the door and give him a choice. It flies in the face of a sin nature and TD. Common sense shows that to be true when reading through those first chapters in Genesis and the Moses left it out for a good reason , it’s not true.
1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
If children are born sinners as TD and original sin teaches then Jesus teaches that to be His disciples we must be corrupt like the little children which is an oxymoron.
The teaching above by Jesus, Ezekiel and John confirms original sin is not true. One becomes a sinner when they sin and become guilty of that sin not before. Babies are born innocent, not guilty. There is no DNA gene making one a sinner that is folklore.
conclusion: The consequences of sin not inherited sin. It’s inherited death.
hope this helps !!!
What state is a one born? In the flesh ir in the Spirit?
Inherited death? Why must we die?
civic
Active Member
the result of sin is physical death. death was passed to all men.
civic
Active Member
From Adams sin which leads to death of everyone.
Why would a infant be responsible for Adams sin?
In what state are we born in? In the flesh? In the Spirit? Or something else.
TibiasDad
Active Member
It is not responsible, but the effects of the sin of the Father affects to children thereof.
The alcoholic father causes trouble for the rest of the family.
Doug
Yet it suffers the consequences? Death? Thats quite the consequence.
If the alcoholic father drives drunk and kills soneone, is the whole family sent to jail? And the subsequent generations?
brightfame52
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TibiasDad
Active Member
Adam and Eve were the entirety of the human race. The human race as a whole sinned, and fell out of fellowship with God.
“In the day that you (singular) eat of it, you will certainly die!” Man is the head of the race, the one held responsible. What goes for home personally, goes for the whole of the race; that is why Eve applied it to herself, as well as her husband, when the serpent questioned her in Gen 3. The serpent uses the plural “you”, referring to both members of the race. Adam was the only human at the initial point of the command, so you singular is referring to the whole of the race.
Death, both spiritually and physically, is in mind here, for the race did not physically die that day, but they did spiritually. Physical death also ensued and has come generally more quickly as time went on, going from 100’s of years on average to roughly 80 years today. (79.4 years in the US, and 73.49 years globally.)
Doug
brightfame52
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TibiasDad
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay, being dead spiritually, how can they perform spiritual godly acts such as repentance, faith obedience to God ? Or maybe you dont consider them activities spiritual but , can pleasingly be performed from the flesh.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Death is separation of one entity from another: physically spirit (the moral and real essence of the person) from body, and spirituality spirit from connection or relationship with God, the one for which we were created to be connected.
The Spirit of man, does not cease in its ability to function, but its function is now corrupted in its functionality due to the separation. In ourselves, we cannot please God, but if God comes to us, in grace, he can make us capable of hearing, comprehending, and responding to what he is saying. (For with God, all things are possible!) Faith, the simple believing that God will do what he says, when God’s conviction of sin (that being the understanding of our true standing before God) and the offer of forgiveness are unveiled to us by His Spirit.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
So is man dead spiritually to God ? Does man need to be made alive/quickened if he is dead ?
Are you saying God can come in Grace and not make alive by Grace ? Consider Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
The word quickened means made alive, and this is said to be by grace.
TibiasDad
Active Member
I did not think you denied orginal sin.
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith is from having life, a dead person has only dead faith. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. You have dead, unquickened by grace people, doing spiritual activity
TibiasDad
Active Member
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