TibiasDad
Active Member
Faith is a statement of trust! It is me saying to God I believe you and trust you to keep your promise. I can believe because God has convinced me he is trustworthy. But the act of faith is given to me to do or not do.
Doug
SOTERIOLOGY 101, Provisionism [ Calvinists of course can be excluded.]
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
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Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith, Trust, Hope are all spiritual activity, you have spiritually dead people performing spiritual acts. No need for them to be made alive first by Grace Eph 2:5
TibiasDad
Active Member
There is no relationship with God. That is the missing spiritual aspect. We have faith, trust, (and hope to one degree or another) in lots of things. There is no difference between my faith in my wife and my faith in God. I trust them to do what they say they will do and that trust allows our relationship to grow stronger each day. The difference is in whom we trust.
If there is no relationship, there is no trust only deadness. We begin relationships by extending trust to another person. The gospel is simply a question of do we trust in what God has promised to do.
Grace is always offered by the offended party. God is the offended party, we are the offenders. The gospel is an extension of Grace toward us, the offenders, by God. God wants to know if we will trust him to do what he promised. That’s all he asks of us to establish a relationship with him.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
You have the spiritually dead natural man bringing forth spiritual fruit. Christs Death produces them things Jn 12:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Saving faith is an act of man’s heart that says to God, “I believe you and trust you to do what you say you will do.” The capacity of our faith grows as we mature in the Lord.
Whether I trust someone or not is a human right and choice. There is no difference between my choosing to trust a person or God, it is the identical apparatus, only the object of the trust is different.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
@TibiasDad
Yeah but not the natural mans evil wicked heart, but with a New Heart provided in regeneration, a spiritually circumcised heart. Ezk 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Thats the good ground heart Jesus talks about here Matt 13:23
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Man by nature the heart isnt good friend, Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
If you are trusting that you performed a spiritually good act with your natural heart, in salvation matters, you prove this verse, you been deceived by your deceitful heart by nature.
Yeah but not the natural mans evil wicked heart, but with a New Heart provided in regeneration, a spiritually circumcised heart. Ezk 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Thats the good ground heart Jesus talks about here Matt 13:23
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Man by nature the heart isnt good friend, Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
If you are trusting that you performed a spiritually good act with your natural heart, in salvation matters, you prove this verse, you been deceived by your deceitful heart by nature.
TibiasDad
Active Member
The basic difference between our views is how we come to understand our spiritual condition in relation to God and what happens to change that condition.
You claim that one must be born again in order to believe, whereas I hold that belief is the precipitator of God saving us, that is belief precedes God saving.
The Bible always says that the lack of belief is the reason people are lost, and that the only way for them to be saved is to believe; the Bible never says that God must regenerate you before you can believe. It never says that we are incapable of believing only that, in our natural state, we won’t believe; we only can’t believe because we have not been given anything to believe in. But grace changed all that, it gives us a way out of our sin, and gives us a promise to believe or disbelieve.
The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us (no need to be born again first) and convicts us of our sin; at this point we can believe it or reject it. I rejected it many times until I didn’t. I knew the truth, I understood what rejection could mean for me, yet I didn’t want to surrender what I knew I would have to give up. Thankfully, the grace of God does not give up easily or quickly and I finally surrendered to the Spirit’s movement in my heart.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
You still dont get it. Man is by nature dead, heart is dead, will for God is dead. Before any spiritual activitie can be performed pleasing to God, man must first by Grace be made alive. Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),ASV
You got dead men performing spiritual acts.
TibiasDad
Active Member
You say we must be made alive and I say we must be made aware before we can believe.
God is the only one who can make us “alive”; you seem to be saying that I am making myself alive- that is just stupid!
If I am already alive, why do I need to believe.
Dead spiritually means separation from God. It does not mean that our spirits are inanimate or incapable; it means that its actions are flawed, imperfect, and can never be perfect in God’s sight.
Scripture says that “Abraham believed” and God counted that, accepted that, as righteousness. God said ‘Abraham pack your bags and go to where I show you to go and I will bless you.’ And Abraham pack his bags and hit the road! Abraham was not, according to scripture, “made alive” before he respond to God. God only asked of Abraham what he was already capable of doing, and God graciously accepted that as acceptable.
Abraham didn’t think God owed him; he just took God at his word and became “the father of many nations”. To trust, is not to say I’ve earned! To trust is not to say I deserve. That is the difference between “works of the law” and grace. We are saved by grace by means of faith! We can never assert that we deserve anything from God- never! It is all of grace!
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
@TibiasDad
Lol, you need life to be aware spiritually, men are dead. Once they are made alive they are made spiritually aware, but not while dead.
Lol, you need life to be aware spiritually, men are dead. Once they are made alive they are made spiritually aware, but not while dead.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Not once does scripture put being alive before believing.
Not once does it say you must be born again before you can believe, it says that you must be born again to see the kingdom of God (go to heaven).
We need to be made aware of our sin and our sinfulness before him and the consequences thereof, that is part of the Spirit’s role. We don’t need to be “alive” to be made aware of our sinfulness before God; unless of course, you don’t think God is capable of making us aware without making us alive? He certainly did with Abraham.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Man is dead. Havent you ever read what happened to man at the fall ? Read Rom 5:15
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Man cannot do anything spiritual, he is dead. Now Grace makes him alive, yet thats only for the elect, and that Grace saves them by making them alive Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Put it simple sir, the only thing that can save a dead man in this spiritual matter, is Grace making them alive.
TibiasDad
Active Member
And that happens when we believe, and not before. Eph 2:5 does not preclude faith being placed first. Faith is the opposite of works. It is not something by which we earn anything; that’s why it is by grace.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
How can a dead person believe ? We believe through Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Grace had to make them alive first from the dead Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Grace makes alive
TibiasDad
Active Member
One more time:
Spiritually dead means separated from God, not inanimate or unable to act. We are created in his image; but that image has been corrupted and God cannot fellowship with corruption, thus we are separated from him. But the image still has the same capacities derived from the Image of God in which it was created, they are just no longer pure, and thus do not function as they should. If the God that spoke “Let there be light”, into the darkness can create the universe, then his presence can enable a corrupted heart to understand the truth and be able to make a decision, even a wrong one.
Doug
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brightfame52
Active Member
Yes to be dead spritually does mean unable to act spiritually. Just like physical death or to be dead physically you are unable to act physically. Your only hope of ever acting physically is to be resurrected physically like Lazarus was. The only way man now that he died and became dead to God spiritually as Per Rom 5:15
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Is to be resurrected, or made alive first, anything short of that, he remains dead. BTW the word dead in Rom 5:15
apothnēskō, its made up of the words apo/thnēskō which means :
- to die, to be dead
- metaph. to be spiritually dead
So before quickening, or New Birth man is spiritually dead to God
TibiasDad
Active Member
Is the rich man in hell unable to see, speak, feel, or remember? (Luke 16:19-ff) Is the spirit inanimate like the body? No, the spirit continues to exist and function. Spiritually speaking, the dead soul is separated from God, it is out of direct connection to its source, just as the body is not connected with the soul.
Even in its best condition, the spirit of man cannot obligate God to act. Any imagined loss of function is an irrelevant matter.
HELPS Word-studies
599 apothnḗskō (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – properly, die off (away from), focusing on the separation that goes with the "dying off (away from)."
599 /apothnḗskō ("die off, from") occurs 111 times in the NT. It stresses the significance of the separation that always comes with divine closure. 599(apothnḗskō) stresses the ending of what is "former" – to bring what (naturally) follows.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Dude the rich man was in hell. Dead Now again, man by nature because of his sin in Adam became dead, spiritually dead. I already know what the greek word means, I just shared it, its used metaphorically to indicate man is spiritually dead.
You dont believe God meant what He said to Adam/Man if he disobeyed, that he would surely die. Thats as final as it can be.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Separate not inanimate. Separate not unfunctional. He’s in hell, but thinks, responds, remembers and is remorseful and he would repent if that were possible, which he knows isn’t. And yet there is still love of his brothers to want to warn them.
Yes, Adam died, was separated from relationship with God. But he would be able to return if God extends his hand and grace to him. The offended party is always in control of the restoration possibilities in any broken relationship. Even if man would desire to restore the relationship, if God doesn’t want to, it will not happen.
But if God is willing but man isn’t, the fault is man’s, not God’s!
Doug
Romans 5:15 is not about quickening, regeneration, or born again. It is about how one is born into this life at birth. That is, the reference the "many " that died through one man's trespass and the "many" that abounded from the grace of God and the free gift are the exact same "many". The effect of Christ's obedience negated the effect of Adam's disobedience, not for just a few but for the whole of mankind. The spirit of man as given by God at each and every birth is set free from any effects of Adam's sin.
To not understand that is to malign God directly, giving heed to Augustine rather that God.
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