What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[Seabass]

I had an old boss who said that.

said what?

Are you spirit filled? What has been your experience when you have sinned . Never got that solid conviction within yourself? Sorry. it should not be missed by any brother or sister.


When the Heavenly Father calls a man with another man or a woman giving up the natural use of het body an abomination a true born again knows this and will stand firm. So no he wont consciously fall away


If you followed certain preachers from the pulpit that say the gay is saved, ???? I say never really saved. No.


What does God say. A marriage is between a man and a woman. So gays at best are well into fornication and sexual weirdness. What does God say...1 Cor 6:9-10 say

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That pretty well says THOU SHALT NOT


Because they wont give up the sex.

True resentence is hard on every sin... but what's the longest you have gone???? NO... Not expecting an answer.

I don't see how this addresses the discrepancy among those that promote OSA,ES,POTS when some claim a Christian who turned to homosexuality will be "saved anyway" or while others claim he was "never really saved"

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

There is precedent in the Scriptures for sinful men to cause good men to sin.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

There is precedent in the Scriptures to see that inaction is sin.

2Ch 19:10 whenever a case comes to you from your brothers who live in their cities, concerning bloodshed, law or commandment, statutes or rules, then you shall warn them, that they may not incur guilt before the LORD and wrath may not come upon you and your brothers. Thus you shall do, and you will not incur guilt.

The Scriptures settles the idea that only "prophets/apostles/preachers" are to warn others about their guilt. Every person is responsible to warn others.

Those who don't, sin.

actually you did bring up a good point .
Lets also remind this generation about what hate truly is my friend . Now this is gonna shock many
cause many sit under the bronze rule of man that says judge not correct not .
YE shall NOT HATE your neighbor in your heart you shall in any way rebuke , correct him and NOT ALLOW sin upon him .
These churches have been decieved and its why leaven has grown massive .
OH here is another reminder to those who always also holler dont name names
dont judge leaders , dont expose false seducers
I HAVE THIS against you , YOU ARE ALLOWING a false prophetess to teach and to seduce MY PEOPLE .
like i said this church age has been DUPED BIG TIME .

 

[ProDeo]

Don't play dumb. I explained it well. Babies are babies. That is why the reference "works".....

Did you notice the "milk" part? Is there some other "milk of Christ" somewhere?

Yes.

"In Christ" is about your identity regardless of whatever, you are bought with a price, you are in Him.

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

---

And about willfully sinning you spoke about, I guess you meant Hebr 10:26 ?

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

It speaks of a pattern, it's not about a single regrettable powerless moment, it's about a permanent change in life style.

Anyone who comes to Christ carries the full past with him/her, for some the weight is light, for many others the burden is heavy and Jesus knew, He said -

Matt 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Matt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Mercy on mercy.
Grace on grace.

So you pretend you're different..... Typical.

The law demanded your death. You should have been dead by now. Why not? Where is your guarantee of opportunity to be different?

I mean well.

 

[MTMattie]

said what?

You... If OSAS.ES.POTS were true then the could be no thing as an apostate.

Old boss.... all will be saved in the end. All the Hitlers to the Charlie Mansons

I don't see how this addresses the discrepancy among those that promote OSA,ES,POTS when some claim a Christian who turned to homosexuality will be "saved anyway" or while others claim he was "never really saved"

If you read what I wrote you will see that if a "professing" Christian turns to homosexuality I say he was never a born again Christian.

If he was, then how would he overcome this?
We are told in Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

But setting that aside for a while...

IMO there is little difference between ES and OSAS. Each has it that if you are saved, you are save.

The difference is when we get to Perseverance of the Saints. (I would say I identify here, mostly) God working through people in their gtroth and understanding by means of the Holy Spirit and the increase of their faith.
This does not mean they will not have those back slidden moments but they will get back on the wagon and not look for bilical proof that
they are okay with what they do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes.

"In Christ" is about your identity regardless of whatever, you are bought with a price, you are in Him.

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

---

And about willfully sinning you spoke about, I guess you meant Hebr 10:26 ?

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

It speaks of a pattern, it's not about a single regrettable powerless moment, it's about a permanent change in life style.

Anyone who comes to Christ carries the full past with him/her, for some the weight is light, for many others the burden is heavy and Jesus knew, He said -

Matt 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Matt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Mercy on mercy.
Grace on grace.



I mean well.

@civic @Johann @ProDeo

It is funny (not laughable) how you speak of "meaning well" yet insist that others be different.

Saying "I mean well" shows that you're not performing to your own requirements.

So....... lets review.

Some seem to think that "being saved" is about performing. However, when they DON'T PERFORM..... it turns into "I mean well"....

So which is it?

If you going to demand performance relative to "being in Him", then be consistent. All you need to be consistent in your theology.

Does God look on the heart? You all are looking at things God doesn't look at.......

What about your place in the "body"? Do you want to be seen by this world or do you only care to have the "heart of God"?

Which one of you would like to show my sinfulness?

 

[Johann]

@civic @Johann @ProDeo

It is funny (not laughable) how you speak of "meaning well" yet insist that others be different.

Saying "I mean well" shows that you're not performing to your own requirements.

So....... lets review.

Some seem to think that "being saved" is about performing. However, when they DON'T PERFORM..... it turns into "I mean well"....

So which is it?

If you going to demand performance relative to "being in Him", then be consistent. All you need to be consistent in your theology.

Does God look on the heart? You all are looking at things God doesn't look at.......

What about your place in the "body"? Do you want to be seen by this world or do you only care to have the "heart of God"?

Which one of you would like to show my sinfulness?

Why am I being tagged here?

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You... If OSAS.ES.POTS were true then the could be no thing as an apostate.

Old boss.... all will be saved in the end. All the Hitlers to the Charlie Mansons

If you read what I wrote you will see that if a "professing" Christian turns to homosexuality I say he was never a born again Christian.

If he was, then how would he overcome this?
We are told in Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

But setting that aside for a while...

IMO there is little difference between ES and OSAS. Each has it that if you are saved, you are save.

The difference is when we get to Perseverance of the Saints. (I would say I identify here, mostly) God working through people in their gtroth and understanding by means of the Holy Spirit and the increase of their faith.
This does not mean they will not have those back slidden moments but they will get back on the wagon and not look for bilical proof that
they are okay with what they do.

What if a "saint" that has fallen to the point they will only ever bring reproach upon the the "name of Christ"?

ἀδόκιμος

Paul uses ἀδόκιμος in reference to possibility of this happening to himself.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

We can't pretend this doesn't happen. It happens all the time. In fact, it happens more times than not. We begin well..... but we never stay there. Never.

Calling all "theologians". "Strap up" and lets take this ride to know the Truth. I see people preaching things they can't possible do themselves. Not without "failures" mixed in.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

What happens when a "saint" falls and can never return to where they once were?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why am I being tagged here?

J.

Because you liked the comment. You don't have to respond. The comment was logically contradictory. Just inviting you to my response.

 

[Johann]

Because you liked the comment. You don't have to respond. The comment was logically contradictory. Just inviting you to my response.

I see nothing wrong with @ProDeo's post.

Contrary to some common assumptions, Jesus is not the ultimate Answer Man, but more like the Great Questioner. In the Gospels Jesus asks many more questions than he answers. To be precise, Jesus asks 307 questions. He is asked 183 of which he only answers 3. Asking questions was central to Jesus’ life and teachings. In fact, for every question he answers directly he asks—literally—a hundred. Jesus is the Question considers the questions Jesus asks—what they tell us about Jesus and, more important, what our responses might say about what it means to follow Him. Through Jesus’ questions, he modeled the struggle, the wondering, the thinking it through that helps us draw closer to God and better understand, not just the answer, but ourselves, our process and ultimately why questions are among Jesus’ most profound gifts for a life of faith. A game-changer of a book.

Amazon.com

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I see nothing wrong with @ProDeo's post.

Contrary to some common assumptions, Jesus is not the ultimate Answer Man, but more like the Great Questioner. In the Gospels Jesus asks many more questions than he answers. To be precise, Jesus asks 307 questions. He is asked 183 of which he only answers 3. Asking questions was central to Jesus’ life and teachings. In fact, for every question he answers directly he asks—literally—a hundred. Jesus is the Question considers the questions Jesus asks—what they tell us about Jesus and, more important, what our responses might say about what it means to follow Him. Through Jesus’ questions, he modeled the struggle, the wondering, the thinking it through that helps us draw closer to God and better understand, not just the answer, but ourselves, our process and ultimately why questions are among Jesus’ most profound gifts for a life of faith. A game-changer of a book.

Amazon.com

J.

If people would pay attention, they would notice that questions are often answers. Also, learned people already know the answers to the questions they're asked. Such ask open question to others for a reason.

If there is no answer to this, then why even try to answer the issue?

Such is just usually an excuse to divert from the facts of an contradiction.

To quote Yoda..... "We don't try. We do or we do not".

 

[Johann]

If people would pay attention, they would notice that questions are often answers. Also, learned people already know the answers to the questions they're asked. Such ask open question to others for a reason.

If there is no answer to this, then why even try to answer the issue?

Such is just usually an excuse to divert from the facts of an contradiction.

To quote Yoda..... "We don't try. We do or we do not".

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

Walk the talk, don't talk the walk.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

Walk the talk, don't talk the walk.

J.

That is good response. Most people would accept it. However, I disagree.

"Talking the talk and not walking the walk" is preaching the Gospel. There is fault to be found everywhere with those "preaching the Gospel".......

Some believe that they MUST "walk the talk" or the Gospel is ineffective. I disagree. There are several reasons why I disagree.

My message is never "look at me.... to see Jesus". Never. NEVER.

My message of the Gospel is my gratefulness for the forgiveness of God and His fellowship with me "in spite of" my weaknesses and inabilities.

Which is more effective?

Walking the talk so others can supposedly see "Jesus in you" or "bowing the knee to the superiority of Christ"?

Please remember that Jesus "walked the talk" and they murdered Him..... All His disciples didn't believe Him......

You know... usually the only people who really see "us" for what we are.... are Atheists. The solution for Atheists is to see themselves for what they are.

 

[MTMattie]

What if a "saint" that has fallen to the point they will only ever bring reproach upon the the "name of Christ"?

ἀδόκιμος

Paul uses ἀδόκιμος in reference to possibility of this happening to himself.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

We can't pretend this doesn't happen. It happens all the time. In fact, it happens more times than not. We begin well..... but we never stay there. Never.

Calling all "theologians". "Strap up" and lets take this ride to know the Truth. I see people preaching things they can't possible do themselves. Not without "failures" mixed in.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

What happens when a "saint" falls and can never return to where they once were?

If a saint falls and turns back... he will be received like the prodigal son.

If a saint falls because he blasphemes the Holy Spirit, then he will be lost. What do I mean by that??? “To commit this sin one must consciously, persistently, deliberately, and maliciously reject the testimony of the Spirit to the deity and saving power of the Lord Jesus.”

So you are going to argue that a saint would never do that.

This is not my saying. It is a quote from one very well known evangelist, of whom I know many totally discount.

That was Billy Graham... It was part of a much longer explanation and he said in a convincing and convicting way.

Ive seen what have seemed like a man who was in the "fold" if I can use that term... I have forgotten his name but he used to be on daily with Pat Robertson and one day Robertson asked this man about his looking into converting to Muslim. That is turning your back on everything we believe.

I believe Robert Schuller did also when he joined with Rick Warren to promote Crislam. All because we believe in the same God. (I wonder)
Andlook what happened the Crystal Cathedral after that. It went bankrupt and he lost most of his congregation.

Thats enough as I am digressing again

 

[Johann]

My message of the Gospel is my gratefulness for the forgiveness of God and His fellowship with me "in spite of" my weaknesses and inabilities.

Good point. Define fellowship and the co-witnessing of the Holy Spirit with our spirit. And in what manner is this done?

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
σύν (syn) – "together with" (a prefix meaning joint participation)
μαρτυρέω (martyreō) – "to bear witness," "to testify"

Meaning and Usage
The verb συμμαρτυρέω means "to testify together with," indicating a joint testimony or confirmation of truth. In this passage, it signifies the Spirit of God testifying alongside our spirit to affirm that we are truly children of God.

Lexical Sources
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon: "to bear witness with, to confirm together."
LSJ (Liddell-Scott-Jones): "to join in bearing witness."
BDAG: "to provide supporting testimony, confirm, bear witness together with."

Cross-References
Romans 2:15: "Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness (συμμαρτυρούσης)."
Romans 9:1: "My conscience also bearing me witness (συμμαρτυρούσης) in the Holy Ghost."
John 15:26: "The Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify (μαρτυρήσει) of me."

In Romans 8:16, Paul is emphasizing that the Holy Spirit actively confirms with our spirit that we belong to God, providing a supernatural assurance of adoption.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If a saint falls and turns back... he will be received like the prodigal son.

If a saint falls because he blasphemes the Holy Spirit, then he will be lost. What do I mean by that??? “To commit this sin one must consciously, persistently, deliberately, and maliciously reject the testimony of the Spirit to the deity and saving power of the Lord Jesus.”

So you are going to argue that a saint would never do that.

This is not my saying. It is a quote from one very well known evangelist, of whom I know many totally discount.

That was Billy Graham... It was part of a much longer explanation and he said in a convincing and convicting way.

Ive seen what have seemed like a man who was in the "fold" if I can use that term... I have forgotten his name but he used to be on daily with Pat Robertson and one day Robertson asked this man about his looking into converting to Muslim. That is turning your back on everything we believe.

I believe Robert Schuller did also when he joined with Rick Warren to promote Crislam. All because we believe in the same God. (I wonder)
Andlook what happened the Crystal Cathedral after that. It went bankrupt and he lost most of his congregation.

Thats enough as I am digressing again

We are close to one another in this......

I would appeal to the abandonment of a faith as being the disqualifying event. When saints fall from their position in the body of the church, complete restoration is often impractical and not even attempted.

Many people end up in "obscurity". Often not mattering to anyone much but Christ.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You are.

no, I am not

what?????

Thats what I thought. I guess you can;t answer your own question?

Nonsense. You expect heaven in return. Don't pretend otherwise. You'll find your claims above will be challenged. I would never say what you said above. I've learned better. You need a new translation. You don't understand "Willful sin" in Hebrews 11:26

Willful sin in Hebrews is willfull rejection of the gospel.

Not personal sin.

You need to learn how to interpret properly

Then why do you fear? Don't tell me you're not fearful. Sure, you might be fearful of certain things but you're not walking on water.

Why would I fear? My salvation is in christ. He will not fail. now If I trusted self. yes i would fear. I would be a fool to not fear.

Yeah. Keep ignoring your own fear.

Yada yada

Do tell what repentance means to you. Everyone seems to believe repentance is just you "changing your mind". Well.... God has to change His mind too. It is called a relationship. You can claim you've changed your mind all you want. God is witness of such when you actually come to agree with one another.

God has the cross. He is here to give it to you. You have to repent or you will never recieve it.

You don't love God with all your heart, body and soul. You dishonor the only Person who has. Jesus Christ. You certainly don't love your enemies like you love yourself. Christ does.

Your right, thats why NO ONE is sinless.

and why we can not earn salvation, keep it,. or keep from losing it. Because it is on God. not us.

 

[praise_yeshua]

no, I am not

Yes you are.

Thats what I thought. I guess you can;t answer your own question?

That's what I thought. You can't answer my original question. Also, you don't notice when someone is just repeating back to you what you're doing...

Willful sin in Hebrews is willfull rejection of the gospel.

Not true at all. Almost all sin is willful. Again. You don't understand what you read and there are better translations. Learn to discern human language and the semantic range of very old words before you "form an opinion".

Why would I fear? My salvation is in christ. He will not fail. now If I trusted self. yes i would fear. I would be a fool to not fear.

Preach this "christ" you're referencing. It might just be an idol you've fabricated and you're just calling "Christ".

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

God has the cross. He is here to give it to you. You have to repent or you will never recieve it.

I suppose you're one of those people that preach that God never changes His mind?

Your right, thats why NO ONE is sinless.

and why we can not earn salvation, keep it,. or keep from losing it. Because it is on God. not us.

Not true. You're right about sin being practiced most everyone. However, you're wrong about those who abandon their faith in Christ.

Do remember when Paul said.....

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Paul wasn't sinless. However, He kept the faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes you are.

Just words my friend, just words.

That's what I thought. You can't answer my original question. Also, you don't notice when someone is just repeating back to you what you're doing...

lol. If you can not answer your own question or even answer what it means, why do you expect someone else to? Come on man.

Not true at all. Almost all sin is willful. Again.

lol you just answered your own question

You don't understand what you read and there are better translations. Learn to discern human language and the semantic range of very old words before you "form an opinion".

Actually I learned along time agao. take it in context.

willful sin is denying christ. For as he said, he who does nto believe is condemned already.

if unbelief is the only unforgivable sin.. then it is the only sin that can condemn you

they willfully rejected christ, after having the truth.

Preach this "christ" you're referencing. It might just be an idol you've fabricated and you're just calling "Christ".

Or maybe your Christ is an idol.. SMH

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Yes, so why are you preaching a gospel of works?

I suppose you're one of those people that preach that God never changes His mind?

I suppose your one that thinks God saved people different ways. having changed his mind?

Not true. You're right about sin being practiced most everyone. However, you're wrong about those who abandon their faith in Christ.

They were never saved.

John is clear on this. Dude your argument is with John not me..

Do remember when Paul said.....

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Paul wasn't sinless. However, He kept the faith.

Even if paul was faithless he would remain faithful. For God can not deny himself

Paul taught to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord. Paul taught eternal security. and spent every book he wrote exposing legalistic self righteous gospel. the gospel you want people to turn to.

You should be ashamed

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The answer bears repeating - The real difference is:


Wanna see it again???