dwight92070
Well-known member
Where's the verse that says that adoption is forever - without ANY condition to meet??
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ahar
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civic
Well-known member
So salvation is not by grace- undeserved gift from God ?
So we must do something to deserve to be saved and kept saved ?
God saves us but its up to us to keep ourselves saved ?
So both God and man are Saviors of themselves ?
God saves us by giving us His spirit but then we must keep ourselves saved or God takes away His spirit ?
Adoption is temporal ? and the downpayment of our future inheritance the indwelling Holy Spirit ( our guarantee ) as Paul puts it in Ephesians 1 is not true ?
Azriel
Well-known member
The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. John 10:10
Well according to John 10:10 It's more like the thief Is the one that causes suffering. Now if a person wants to run with the Devil I would definitely imagine he's going to have a lot of suffering in his life. On the other hand
If you abide in Christ, He tells us that he came so we could have life abundantly. Hey if you want to suffer that's on you. The Bible tells me that the Kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the holy ghost. Romans 14:17 No suffering there.
Jesus was the suffering servant he took our place. Now Works Salvation and some suffering would be like crawling on your hands and knees whipping yourself on the back all the way to Rome.
Well according to John 10:10 It's more like the thief Is the one that causes suffering. Now if a person wants to run with the Devil I would definitely imagine he's going to have a lot of suffering in his life. On the other hand
If you abide in Christ, He tells us that he came so we could have life abundantly. Hey if you want to suffer that's on you. The Bible tells me that the Kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the holy ghost. Romans 14:17 No suffering there.
Jesus was the suffering servant he took our place. Now Works Salvation and some suffering would be like crawling on your hands and knees whipping yourself on the back all the way to Rome.
Let's not forget why I posted in the first place. Which was to include the part of Paul's letter to the Ephesians regarding what "Good Works" Paul instructed that we were saved unto. This part of Paul's Letter is often ignored or downplayed by "many" who come in Christ's Name. And those would be the Works of GOD that HE before ordained that we should walk in them. They are identified throughout the Bible as God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments. They are an essential part of God's salvation, and it is the rejection and rebellion against these "Good Works" God before ordained, that resulted in the need for Salvation in the first place.
The point being to study Paul's Letters to determine what he is actually teaching. Not to do as many do, which is to wrest Paul's words to justify and/or promote one of more of this world's popular religious traditions and religious philosophies of men that Paul also warns us about.
I'm glad we are having this discussion about what "our" part is, according to Paul, in receiving this great Gift. And why our sins were forgiven in the first place.
Why do we need to be quickened together, and why do we need to put on a New Man? What was wrong with the old man? How can I understand Paul's Letter if I only acknowledge select pieces of them?
Consider what Paul actually says.
Eph. 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
This world has always rejected God's Judgments, His Statutes and Sabbaths, His Commandments. (See the Bible) Is this not how men become "Children of Disobedience" in the first place? That is who men are, before repentance, Yes?
The Christ, before becoming a man, had this to say;
Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
And this same Christ said after HE became a man.
Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
And Paul teaches;
Eph. 4: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Are these Words not inspired by the Same Spirit?
So then, the old man was a child of disobedience. We are to put on the New Man, which is a child of obedience (righteousness and true holiness), Yes? And who else but God knows what righteousness and true holiness is? Isn't this the reason why Jesus said to the deceiver "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
And why Paul warned his fellow member of the Body of Christ;
2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
This is what Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile according to scriptures.
Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
And what "Works" would those be, if not the "Works" God before ordained that men should walk in them? As did the Christ of the Bible?
And what if a person chooses to Judge some of God's "Instruction in Righteousness" as beneath them, or unworthy of their honor and respect? Isn't this the reason they were dead in trespasses and sins in the first place?
Isn't that why Jesus said HE doesn't know those who "work iniquity", even though they call Him Lord, Lord, and preach in His Name?
Whosoever
Member
Great post. I like this translation of John 10:10 The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows).
Burdock
Member
I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:4–9
This is one of the clearest and most striking declarations of God’s commitment to preserve and protect his children all the way through to the end when Jesus returns. Savor the flavor of so sweet a promise of God’s love for his people, and then swallow it and let it nourish, enrich, and strengthen your soul.
First, this is unmistakably a promise, not a wish, not a let’s-hope-it-all-turns-out-okay sort of affirmation. Paul says that Jesus Christ “will” sustain you—not might sustain you, not may sustain you, not he’ll-give-it-his-best-shot-but-who-knows-if-he-can-pull-it-off sort of expectation.
Second, the sustaining is something Jesus does. He will “sustain” you. When you feel weak and don’t think you can hold on for another second, when you are convinced that eternal doom awaits you around the corner, when you fear that God has had it up to his eyeballs with your failures and faults, recall that Christ promises to sustain his people.
This is one of the clearest and most striking declarations of God’s commitment to preserve and protect his children all the way through to the end when Jesus returns. Savor the flavor of so sweet a promise of God’s love for his people, and then swallow it and let it nourish, enrich, and strengthen your soul.
First, this is unmistakably a promise, not a wish, not a let’s-hope-it-all-turns-out-okay sort of affirmation. Paul says that Jesus Christ “will” sustain you—not might sustain you, not may sustain you, not he’ll-give-it-his-best-shot-but-who-knows-if-he-can-pull-it-off sort of expectation.
Second, the sustaining is something Jesus does. He will “sustain” you. When you feel weak and don’t think you can hold on for another second, when you are convinced that eternal doom awaits you around the corner, when you fear that God has had it up to his eyeballs with your failures and faults, recall that Christ promises to sustain his people.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Of course it's by grace THROUGH OUR FAITH - none of us deserved it, nor could we have ever saved ourselves - what? are we going to die on the cross to save ourselves? Even if we could do that, we are not without sin like Jesus was, so it would be in vain. But God decided that all men must OBEY HIM in REPENTANCE and EXERCISING OUR FAITH in order to RECEIVE (NOT DESERVE) THAT SALVATION.
So after we're saved, justified, born again, are we not supposed to CONTINUE TO OBEY, REPENT OF CURRENT SINS, AND EXERCISE OUR FAITH???
Yes, in fact we're COMMANDED TO and we're given grave warnings if we don't. It doesn't really matter whether we like the grave warnings or not, THEY ARE STILL THERE, AND WE MUST HEED THEM.
Don't be silly. We're not our own Saviors- HE ALREADY DID THE HEAVY LIFTING, WHICH WE COULD NEVER DO, ONLY HE TOOK THE SINS OF THE WORLD, INCLUDING OURS TO THE CROSS.
But yes, NOW, after being born again and justified, we DO have an OBLIGATION to do WHAT ONLY WE CAN DO (HE'S NOT GOING TO DO IT FOR US) -Abide in Him, walk in the Spirit, obey Him, suffer with Him, persevere in hope, continue to love God and our brother, set our mind on the things of the Spirit, etc.
What, do you think that we MADE UP the possibility of losing your salvation? You'll have to talk to God about that. He's the one who said that if the branches don't abide in the vine, they'll be burned. He's the one who said that if you don't continue in His kindness, then you too would be cut off. He's the one who warned us of having an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. He's the one who said that if we deny Him, He would deny us.
You can call it anything you want: being unborn again, temporary adoption, removing the down payment of our inheritance, lying, not keeping His promises, etc. - but of course, no matter what you call it, you would be wrong. GOD ALWAYS KEEPS HIS WORD AND HIS PROMISES. IT'S JUST THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE CONDITIONS HE PUT IN PLACE TO RECEIVE THOSE PROMISES. LET GOD BE FOUND TRUE, AND EVERY MAN BE FOUND A LIAR.
Clifford
Active member
I love it. 1 Corinthians 1:4–9 Is the bottom line. Paul describes why he is so grateful for them. First, he gives thanks because they have been given grace from God in Christ Jesus. In other words, God has already welcomed them into His family and given them a place with Him in eternity because they came to Him through faith in Christ.
Neither we nor the Corinthians deserve that enormous gift. We have earned quite the opposite with our sin and, in many ways, we continue to fail to live up to the good God has given to us. Paul is so glad for the grace they have received, even as they continue to fail to do what is right in some important ways. Paul reassures them that Christ will sustain them and bring them all the way home.
Burdock
Member
This is excellent.
Hebrews 4:9-11
9 So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. 10 For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. 11 So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
So stop trying to work for an acceptance that you already have. Just receive it with the beautiful faith of a little child, and walk in all the tangible benefits of being wholly and completely loved today. For if you do, you will find a deep rest for your soul in your unbreakable union with Jesus, for His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
Hebrews 4:9-11
9 So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. 10 For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. 11 So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
So stop trying to work for an acceptance that you already have. Just receive it with the beautiful faith of a little child, and walk in all the tangible benefits of being wholly and completely loved today. For if you do, you will find a deep rest for your soul in your unbreakable union with Jesus, for His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I don't know about others, but I'm not working to be accepted by God, but I'm working to be obedient to and out of love for Jesus, my Lord and my God. If a married couple loves God and each other, then, (according to 1 Corinthians 11:3) the man is the head of his wife, and he will love her like Christ loves the church - and she will OBEY him because she trusts and LOVES him, and she will do what he says for the same reason.
This is the same with our relationship with Jesus, and this is the special rest mentioned in Hebrews.
This does not mean that obeying Jesus will never make us physically tired. In fact, if we had tagged along with the twelve following Jesus around Israel, I think we would be amazed how much walking Jesus and the twelve did. Over the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry, they must have walked hundreds, maybe even thousands of miles.
Khazar
Member
Please allow me to speak for myself. The fact is I don't want to argue with With anyone about anything. Anyone on this form is entitled to believe and discuss whatever they feel like. And that includes assumptions. I would definitely not argue about once saved always saved because it's not in the Bible. Although eternal security is.
And as far as baptism goes, That was brought up in this post{ Link below}. Notice who is the author of that post that claims they worked hard, Hard to believe I know. They worked so hard they sweated and baptized themselves.
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @Studyman,
In relation to the underlined portion of your entry (above), Salvation is necessary because of the fall of Adam, way before the law was given, though of course it was disobedience to God's known will that caused his fall:-
'Wherefore, as by one man
sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of Him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.
For if through the offence of one many be dead,
much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,
which is by one man, Jesus Christ,
hath abounded unto many.'
(Rom 5:12)
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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dwight92070
Well-known member
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, ..." Phiippians 1:29
"For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps." 1 Peter 2:21
"So they went on their way ... rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name." Acts 5:41
"But the Lord said to him, ... I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake." Acts 9:15-16
Another example of a OSAS person who doesn't know their Bible very well at all - even to the point of calling any of us who do suffer, part of the "works salvation" crowd. This Bible ignorance is inexcusable, especially if they think they can teach others on this forum. These are just a few verses - there are many more. Most of us do not want to suffer, but if we're going to live for Jesus in an uncompromising way, we can expect it, according to the Bible authors. And when it comes, we should rejoice that we're suffering for Him.
Azriel
Well-known member
Well it was a lovely day today. I really had a good time. I hope you did the same.
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civic
Well-known member
James says we should consider it a joy.
Paul wrote the letter of Joy from prison after being beaten.
civic
Well-known member
Let's get back on track
Azriel
Well-known member
Right on, so if you're into suffering for Christ you should be full of joy. You could travel to Iraq, and get in a whole lot of suffering. It would come in handy when you evangelize. Tell them how much Jesus loves you and how much suffering you're going to get to endure. That's one sure fired way to pack all the churches to the brim.
So this thread is about eternal security, So I imagine the more we suffer for the Lord the more secure we are? Is that how it works? If you just fell off the turnip truck maybe.Righteousness peace and joy in the holy ghost, That's the kingdom of God. How many times we got to go over this stuff. Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly.
So this thread is about eternal security, So I imagine the more we suffer for the Lord the more secure we are? Is that how it works? If you just fell off the turnip truck maybe.Righteousness peace and joy in the holy ghost, That's the kingdom of God. How many times we got to go over this stuff. Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly.
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Azriel
Well-known member
That sounds sounds wonderfulLet's get back on track
Azriel
Well-known member
Actually I'm not an OSAS Person, I'm a brother in Christ we're in one body.
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