Eternal Security

[Complete]

Actually, here is what the verse actually says.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Jesus of the Bible describes a discussion HE will have with "MANY" in that Day, who call Him Lord, Lord in Matt. 7. These would be men who Professed to know God but chose to discard or reject some of the "good works" God ordained before hand, that we should walk in them.
Paul speaks to this people as well.
Titus 1: 16 They profess that they know God;but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Eph 2:8)

Hello Studyman,

Thank you for your response.

* You refer to Matthew 7, so lets just read what it says:-

'Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.'
(Mat 7:21)

* What is the will of The Father? What are the works that He would have us do?
The Lord was asked this question in John 6 and this was His answer,:-

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
(Joh 6:28-29)

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Studyman]

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Eph 2:8)

Thank you. The post I responded to, which said "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus", was incomplete, as it omitted the part where the Spirit of God tells us why the repentant were created in Christ Jesus in the first place. I thought it was needful to include the rest of the sentence.

It is always my hope on these forums to examine Scriptures openly, for the purpose of understanding them, as opposed to simply using them. I appreciate the opportunity to do that.

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
So God's Grace is a gift of God that existed before I was even born. I had nothing to do how God chose to deliver men from Sin. And thank God for that. I would most certainly screw it up, if I had a hand in it.
Not of (MANS) works, lest any man should boast.
It seems prudent to point out that there are a Great Many Awesome, and significant "Works" that came into play before this "Grace" could become a gift available to me. Yes? At least according to the Holy Scriptures. So to say "Not of works" here, must certainly mean, "not of man's work". Because to say there were "NO WORKS" involved in the Grace that is available to me, would be to discount the sacrifice of the Lord's Christ, in my view. I don't believe for a second, that Paul meant his words to be taken in that way. What about you?
For we are His workmanship,
So who would be the "WE" here? Would it be safe to say that these were those Jews and Gentiles Paul said, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:20) What do you think?
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
Here is the word "works" again. What "works" are we "Created in Christ Jesus to "DO"? Shall we believe Paul and consider these "works" to be works "worthy of repentance"? What works would those be? Doesn't Paul tell us in the next verse?
"unto good works" which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

OK, that explains a lot, including Paul's Teaching in Ephesians.

Eph. 2: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (Repent, Yes?)

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; (Turn to God, Yes?)

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Do Works worthy of repentance, Yes?)

Thank You

Hello Studyman,

Thank you for your response.

* You refer to Matthew 7, so lets just read what it says:-

'Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.'
(Mat 7:21)

It seems you are doing it again. That is, "omitting" important parts of what is written. Let's include more of the Christ's Words so as to better understand HIS teaching, and also the context of my reply to you.

Matt. 7: 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (I am assuming the "Them" here are the "false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" HE speaks to in verse 15, Yes?)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It seems "believe" requires more than just words.

* What is the will of The Father? What are the works that He would have us do?
The Lord was asked this question in John 6 and this was His answer,:-

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
(Joh 6:28-29)

So then, what does Jesus say about those "MANY" who "Believed on Him" in Matt. 7? How can I know if they are "false prophets" who "Profess to know God" but don't? Didn't Jesus say I would know them by their "works"? So then, if a man claims to believe on the Christ "of the Bible", but "works iniquity", then Jesus doesn't know him, Yes? So then "believe" requires more than simply words. Which makes sense because the demons also believe.

So then, if I believe on the Jesus of the Bible, I will "walk in the Good Work's God before ordained that men should walk in them", not in the doctrines and traditions of this world's religions I was born into, which cause me to "work iniquity". Which perfectly explains Paul's words, "We are Created in Christ Jesus unto good works, that God before ordained (Not this world's religions)that we should walk in them".

And those who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and claim to believe on Him, but "work iniquity", don't really believe in him, do they?

Great Scriptures to examine and discuss to, as Paul says "that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

 

[Studyman]

Many people don't seem to understand the difference between an actual strong opinion and a literal insult.

If you disagree too "strongly" then you are "insulting and mean," which does not logically follow at all.

An insult is accusing character, motive and abilities, not saying something is wrong.

Society has seemed to progress towards a kind of speech control centered around accusations of offense for mere contrary opinions.

I agree. The Truth often offends. But it is never "insulting". Jesus didn't "insult" the mainstream preachers of His Time. He told them the truth about themselves and their religious philosophy, and they were offended.

 

[Ezra]

It's just a logical conclusion.

Where are the rules of grammar and logic in the Bible?

That's a nonsensical question.

logic and rules of grammar has nothing to do with it. you back your thoughts up by the word of God. if i say i salvation is secure/ NOT eternal security or one can lose salvation. neither one of them phrases is Bible. but being secure is peter wrote kept by the Power of God Jude wrote he is able to keep us from falling. so if it is written KEPT by the power of God and able to keep us from Falling.. does that not mean secure ??????????

 

[Dizerner]

does that not mean secure ??????????

The Bible is full of warnings and conditions, if God wanted us JUST to have security, then the Bible would not have ANY warnings and conditions.

But we can still have a security not based in the elimination of our free will, but rather dependence and preparation as Scripture teaches us.

I would urge you to consider there is no derivation of meaning of ANY Bible verse without logic and grammar, so they necessarily come first.

 

[Ezra]

The Bible is full of warnings and conditions, if God wanted us JUST to have security, then the Bible would not have ANY warnings and conditions.

But we can still have a security not based in the elimination of our free will, but rather dependence and preparation as Scripture teaches us.

I would urge you to consider there is no derivation of meaning of ANY Bible verse without logic and grammar, so they necessarily come first.

no body denied the warning since your hell bent on discounting our security in Christ ..let me rephrase the the word this is the Confidence we have ! if you went to sleep last night saved and woke up still saved that is security and confidence

 

[civic]

The Bible is full of warnings and conditions, if God wanted us JUST to have security, then the Bible would not have ANY warnings and conditions.

But we can still have a security not based in the elimination of our free will, but rather dependence and preparation as Scripture teaches us.

I would urge you to consider there is no derivation of meaning of ANY Bible verse without logic and grammar, so they necessarily come first.

Its a matter of faith/believing in the promises of God- believers call that assurance of ones salvation. No faith equals doubt. doubt equals lack of confidence, lack of confidence leads to no assurance, no assurance leads to unbelief in the promises of eternal life.

Its a downward mudslide. The warning passages are to get on on track to believe God and His promises, to walk in faith not by sight. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Dizerner]

Its a matter of faith/believing in the promises of God- believers call that assurance of ones salvation. No faith equals doubt. doubt equals lack of confidence, lack of confidence leads to no assurance, no assurance leads to unbelief in the promises of eternal life.

Look, if you are actually eternally secure, who cares if you doubt or not, it doesn't matter, it doesn't affect anything. Yeah, okay, you are a little upset for a bit, but it has no relevance or importance.

However, if you are NOT actually eternally secure, the warnings and conditions actually have WEIGHT and MEANING.

God doesn't put up warning signs of "BRIDGE OUT AHEAD!!" when there is actually a bridge there anyway.

God is not dishonest like that, and this evil and wicked doctrine of eternal security is demonic.

Some people will be burning for all eternity because they believed this nonsense, and Christians will be held RESPONSIBLE at judgment.

Period.

 

[Ezra]

believers call that assurance of ones salvation

 

[Ezra]

ome people will be burning for all eternity because they believed this nonsense, and Christians will be held RESPONSIBLE at judgment.

Period.

hope you dont lose it and burn in hell . your one of these if its black and your told its black you would have say its red all because you cant listen to reason whats being explained

 

[Burdock]

If Black is Black I want my salvation back. If gray is gray I never lost it anyway. Mic drop, Exit stage left

 

[civic]

Look, if you are actually eternally secure, who cares if you doubt or not, it doesn't matter, it doesn't affect anything. Yeah, okay, you are a little upset for a bit, but it has no relevance or importance.

However, if you are NOT actually eternally secure, the warnings and conditions actually have WEIGHT and MEANING.

God doesn't put up warning signs of "BRIDGE OUT AHEAD!!" when there is actually a bridge there anyway.

God is not dishonest like that, and this evil and wicked doctrine of eternal security is demonic.

Some people will be burning for all eternity because they believed this nonsense, and Christians will be held RESPONSIBLE at judgment.

Period.

If one is not saved but thinks they are then there by all means should be doubt in a false security. its a difference being if one is saved or being deceived- hence the warnings.

churches are not filled with all believers as many are not saved and become saved after hearing the gospel and believing it. I see people at our church come to Christ all of the time. They were going to church unsaved. So the warning passages convict them of their sin and need to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Burdock]

It's like that old expression... "A lot of people are saved, But they don't understand how saved they really are." They can't comprehend eternal security. Works they understand, Grace is a mystery.

 

[Ezra]

If one is not saved but thinks they are then there by all means should be doubt in a false security. its a difference being if one is saved or being deceived- hence the warnings.

churches are not filled with all believers as many are not saved and become saved after hearing the gospel and believing it. I see people at our church come to Christ all of the time. They were going to church unsaved. So the warning passages convict them of their sin and need to repent and believe the gospel.

this discussion is liker a mule looking at a new gate... no matter how eternal security which is a term i do not use. i prefer a know so salvation ..but if a person can not understand teh security in our salvation. which is not a license to ain as suggested. then they are Blind

 

[Aeliana]

Many Christians seem to believe that death is the point at which they will receive eternal life—and that they are eternally secure from that point on. But if their salvation ultimately depended upon them keeping themselves saved here, which I call works salvation. Because Scripture teaches that believers have eternal life as a present tense possession now—they don’t need to wait to die in order to know they have eternal life.

If you were to ask a Christian if they had eternal life most would say yes. But if one believes In work salvation how could you answer that question not knowing if you had done enough works to earn your salvation.

Work salvation is not what the Bible teaches.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These thing I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. John 5:11-13

When Scripture speaks of the believer possessing “life” it always refers to eternal life. Because eternal life can never coexist with eternal death, once one possesses eternal life, it forever nullifies the possibility of ever possessing eternal death.

This is why Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” John 5:24

Again, if God had intended for us to believe that a believer in Jesus could be lost, He would never have spoken of eternal life as a present possession. But because we are now possessors of eternal life, Scripture tells us that we are present possessors of the future inheritance that will bring to fruition all that is involved in having eternal life now.

 

[dwight92070]

The Christian life contains truths to be believed and commands to be obeyed. That is true of the Bible as well. We need both the doctrine and the obedience. In fact, our doctrine often times, if not always, dictates our behavior. We are to obey Jesus' commands and the apostle's commands. There are many, over 1000 in the New Testament, I'm told. It's hard to believe that there are fewer commands in the Old Testament - 613, than there are in the New Testament.

 

[Azriel]

The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a gift. Ephesians 2:8 teaches that salvation “is the gift of God.” In John 10:28 Jesus said, “I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish.” Romans 6:23 teaches that “the free gift of God is eternal life.”

Scripture also teaches that the grace of God is a gift given the believer. First Corinthians 1:4 tells us “the grace of God which was given you.” Ephesians 3:7 NASB speaks of “the gift of God’s grace.” The Bible also says that we have been “justified as a gift” (Romans 3:24 NASB), and therefore we have “the gift of righteousness” (Romans 5:17 NASB).

So My question is, Would God ever take back the gifts He has freely given? If salvation is a gift consisting of irreversible actions, can it ever be returned? I don't think so.

Romans 11:29 says that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” I like reading it in other translations. Wuest renders it, “For the gifts in grace and the calling of God are with respect to a change of mind irrevocable.” The Living Bible reads, “For God’s gift and his call can never be withdrawn; he will never go back on his promises.” The Amplified Bible teaches, “For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]”

The gift of my salvation is irrevocable. I've been given to the Son by the Father and He's not going to let anything snatch me out of his hand.

 

[civic]

You stated, "But what do OSAS people do with the fact that their doctrine takes away FREE WILL from anyone who gets born again? OSAS people are no longer allowed to voluntarily reject the gospel because so-called eternal security (not a Bible term) FORCES them to stay saved, whether they want that or not."

It seems to me that your misunderstanding here may originate mainly from encountering only those who defend the OSAS position from the erroneous 5-point Calvinist perspective. In other words, if regeneration precedes faith as the Calvinist claims, then a person simply could not possess free moral agency ... no matter how hard the Calvinist tries to explain that fact away. Now, I can't speak for every person out there who holds to a non 5-point Calvinist OSAS position, but many OSAS Arminians, including myself, would clarify your misunderstanding as follows :

Every genuine, blood-bought, Holy Spirit indwelt, believer will naturally or organically desire [as opposed to being overridden by God] to serve and please their Creator and Redeemer as a result of the new nature they received when they first placed their trust in Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 5:17].

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 :
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be [preserved blameless] unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also [will] do it.

As new creatures in Christ, they receive hearts that are compatible or malleable... hearts that will be responsive to the various means that God utilizes for their preservation. Therefore, man's free moral agency [although not viewed in an unlimited sense] exists both prior and subsequent to regeneration.

God's promises pertaining to the New Covenant :

Jeremiah 32:40, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."

Ezekiel 36:26-27 :
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Also, the new heart/nature that every believer received at their new birth was received as a result of an unforced choice to place their faith in Christ's atoning work. The fact that a person possessed a choice in the matter certainly doesn't diminish the Sovereignty of God as the Calvinist falsely assumes ... but rather establishes it, that is, God Sovereignly granted/willed it.

The decision that they made to receive God's offered salvation carried with it eternal implications ... and I'm very confident that not a single genuine follower of Christ will ever regret the fact that they are now possessions of Jesus Christ ... eternally. Just as some decisions we make in the here and now carry with them irreversible ramifications in the physical realm, so it is in the spiritual. Aren't you glad that trusting in Christ's atoning work for your acceptance [justification] before God is one of them? I sure know I am!!

Amen

 

[Clay]

“Since no one is able to pluck us out of the Father’s hand, we are therefore eternally secure”. It's really not that hard to figure out But it must be properly understood. This statement of our Lord in John 10:27-30 is a most precious promise to His followers.

We are His private property — “My sheep” We were given to Jesus by the Father.

Our Job — “Hear My voice … and … follow Me”

Our Personal Possession — “I give unto them eternal life”.

The Positive Proclamation — “They shall never perish”.

This is to be understood in the light of the sheep “HEARING” His voice and “FOLLOWING” Him. It is therefore conditional! If you don't do those two things you're not a Christian.

Their Present Position — “Neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand … no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand”.

Their Powerful Protection — “My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all … I and My Father are one”.

It is very clear that this passage makes the positive assertion that “they shall never perish”. It is just as clear in asserting that all of Christ’s sheep hear His voice and follow Him. The meaning is that any person who does not hear His voice and follow Him is not one of His sheep. Reduced to simple logic, this passage states:

Major Premise: All who are secure are Christ’s sheep. If you're not secure in your salvation then you must be a wolf in sheep's clothing Trying to Gaslight True Believers.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Eternal Security'
[Responding to reply#442 by @Studyman, in relation to reply#441]

Hello @Studyman,

I can see that you enjoyed writing this response, and I appreciate your desire to examine the Scriptures, rather than just quoting them to prove a point.

'For by grace are ye saved through faith; ​

and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

For we are His workmanship, ​

created in Christ Jesus unto good works, ​

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

(Eph. 2:8-10)​

* I agree with what you say in relation to the verses (above) from Ephesians, salvation through faith, is indeed God's wondrous gift to us, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ on our behalf, in taking upon Himself the penalty for our sin, and paying it's price, that we may be set free from the bondage of sin, which is death, and thereby have the hope of eternal life in Him. The work of salvation was indeed His and His alone.

'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, ​

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'​

Eph 2:10​

​

* In response to your question concerning to whom the word 'we' in this verse refers. I believe it refers to those addressed on the envelope,
' ... to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus ...'. (Eph.1:1).

* In reference to the good works the believer is created in Christ Jesus to perform? I believe that the practical section of Ephesians gives us instruction concerning what is written in this doctrinal section of the epistle, e.g.,

Doctrine (1:3 to 3:13) & Practice (4:1 to 6:20)
- Quickened together - put off the old man
- Raised together - put on the new man
- Seated together - put away the lie
(1:19 to 2:7) (4:20 to 4:32)

- Not of works - walk in love
- We are His work - walk as light
- Unto good works - walk circumspectly
(2:8 to10) (5:1 to 6:9)

* Forgive me, for I know that I have not addressed all the points that you have raised, but I am just too tired to do more tonight. Yet I believe that Ephesians itself contains all that we need in order to fully understand what God is saying to us through Paul in this epistle.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

​