Your Views on The Trinity

[Runningman]

Ok, is this a confirmation that you do not believe the Father's words? (Heb 1:8,9)

1. Yes, God is immortal, "the First and the Last" in Isaiah 41:4
2. As to Jesus Divine nature will not die, but His human flesh died.(1Pet 3:18)
3. Yes, (Isaiah 41:4) The LORD Almighty God said it.
4. First and the last refers to the Father and also to Jesus' Divine nature will not die, (Isa 41:4, Rev 1:17, 22:13,16 ) Jesus human flesh died.(1Pet 3:18)

Now, prove that "the First and the Last died" is a Biblical phrase.
Or you just added words to the Bible an alarming deed. "If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book." (Rev 22:18)

It seems you agree that God is immortal, but God is also the First and Last. However, the First and Last died, which is contrary to immortality. Hence "First and Last" can't be used as a divine title. Why? Because God doesn't die. First and Last is a reference to category.

We should not make the mistake of conflating others with God based on titles alone. Some titles are exclusive to God with there about two dozen names and titles Jesus doesn't share with God. However, there are some titles that Jesus and other humans share with God, but First and Last isn't about being God though.

Let's look at how humans can share titles with God without being God:

1. In Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes is called king of kings, but in 1 Timothy 6:15 we have the Father being referred to as a King of kings.
2. The Father is called Lord of lords in Deuteronomy 10:17, but Abraham is called my Lord is Genesis 24:9,10.
3. The Father called elohim in Genesis 1:1, Moses called elohim in Exodus 7:1, God's sons called elohim in Psalm 82:6.
4. The Father called Shepherd in Psalm 23:1, humans referred to as shepherd in Ezekiel 34 and 1 Samuel 17:34
5. YHWH is identified as the Father in Malachi 2:10 and others called father in Genesis 45:8 for example.
6. The Father called Savior in Isaiah 43:11, other humans called saviors in Judges 3:9 and Obadiah 1:21
7. The Father called Judge in Genesis 18:25, other humans called judges in Deuteronomy 16:18

And the list goes on and on and on: others called son of God, others called holy, others are anointed, others called husband, others called the light of the world, others called the firstborn, etc.

Yet we don't run off and start calling everyone and their mother Lord God Almighty do we? No? So why do you do it to Jesus?

 

[amazing grace]

Is Titus 2:13 talking about the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ as in this phrase: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' OR Is it speaking about the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ as in this phrase 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God Savior, Jesus Christ.'?

 

[Runningman]

Is Titus 2:13 talking about the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ as in this phrase: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' OR Is it speaking about the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ as in this phrase 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God Savior, Jesus Christ.'?

I like to refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:14 when they confuse God with being Jesus in Titus 2:13. It reads like God is bringing Jesus back. If God were Jesus, he would bring himself back, not receive a bringing back [by God.] So the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus are two different persons.

There is God, then there is Jesus and those God brings with Jesus.

1 Thess. 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

 

[Peterlag]

They think that after Paul opened every letter by singling the Father out as the only God that it means others are God too. They have a funny way of looking at things.

Mikesw finally gave me the insight I was looking for. It's all about them. When you have the trinity, you serve yourself. You are what is focused on. You put yourself first. It makes so much sense to me now. Without the Christ you become the Christ. It becomes your faith and not the faith of Jesus Christ. They hate me because I tell them it's not about them.

 

[amazing grace]

I like to refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:14 when they confuse God with being Jesus in Titus 2:13. It reads like God is bringing Jesus back. If God were Jesus, he would bring himself back, not receive a bringing back [by God.] So the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus are two different persons.

There is God, then there is Jesus and those God brings with Jesus.

1 Thess. 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

I can see where you could draw that conclusion.

Titus does clearly distinguish between the two God and Jesus - Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ . . .
and again in verse 4: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Notice in verse 4 Christ Jesus is called our Savior . . . but right in the previous verse God (the Father, verse 4). God is referred to as the Savior 3 times - Christ Jesus 1 time and then we have Titus 2:13 which mentions both . . . BUT it does not read: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior'; it reads 'the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior'. . . . who is the glory of our great God and Savior . . . . Jesus Christ.
Of course, I believe that God is the Savior as it was HIS plan of salvation brought about by his Son thus making him the Savior who carried out God's initial plan of salvation.

Anyway the verse does say 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. . . which I believe refers to the glory of God appearing in Jesus Christ.
There are some verses that do back this thought - for the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Matt. 16:27 . . .
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38
It is the glory of God seen in the face of Jesus Christ . . . (2 Cor. 4:6)

I paraphrased some of this from Dustin Smith, PHD - Biblical Unitarian Podcasts - podcast #180 Making Sense of Titus 2:13.
He states that this is an ambiguous passage and gives 3 options and any of the 3 would be legitimately grammatically correct. There is no consensus found in commentaries as to what the passage actually means and he ends with it is unlikely that a consensus will be reached anytime soon!

 

[Peterlag]

Peterlag, can you cite another verse to support your point that mentions the glorious appearing of the Father?

There's a whole bunch of Bibles that have it's the glory of God that will be appearing. The NIV below also has it that way. You got nothing.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

 

[Runningman]

Mikesw finally gave me the insight I was looking for. It's all about them. When you have the trinity, you serve yourself. You are what is focused on. You put yourself first. It makes so much sense to me now. Without the Christ you become the Christ. It becomes your faith and not the faith of Jesus Christ. They hate me because I tell them it's not about them.

I think with most of them it seems they have something lose and they can't stand it.

I think Jesus worded it best when he said "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

They have trinitarian friends and family, possibly positions in their church or jobs, etc. Imagine how difficult it would be to willingly face potential ostracization from them, monetary loss, and that kind of hardship for just leaving that trinitarian life and following Jesus? Many who heard the various sayings of Jesus would follow him no more until he was left with just his original 12, minus Judas eventually, because what Jesus taught acts as a filter. Only those who truly love Jesus can follow and obey his teachings. It's bittersweet because we're doing it and that's the sweet part, but bitter because so many who profess to follow Jesus actually refuse to follow him when shown what he taught about.

 

[mikesw]

I think with most of them it seems they have something lose and they can't stand it.

I think Jesus worded it best when he said "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

They have trinitarian friends and family, possibly positions in their church or jobs, etc. Imagine how difficult it would be to willingly face potential ostracization from them, monetary loss, and that kind of hardship for just leaving that trinitarian life and following Jesus? Many who heard the various sayings of Jesus would follow him no more until he was left with just his original 12, minus Judas eventually, because what Jesus taught acts as a filter. Only those who truly love Jesus can follow and obey his teachings. It's bittersweet because we're doing it and that's the sweet part, but bitter because so many who profess to follow Jesus actually refuse to follow him when shown what he taught about.

Certainly we are concerned about losing Christ and denying him in the fashion of the unitarians.

 

[Runningman]

I can see where you could draw that conclusion.

Titus does clearly distinguish between the two God and Jesus - Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ . . .
and again in verse 4: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Notice in verse 4 Christ Jesus is called our Savior . . . but right in the previous verse God (the Father, verse 4). God is referred to as the Savior 3 times - Christ Jesus 1 time and then we have Titus 2:13 which mentions both . . . BUT it does not read: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior'; it reads 'the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior'. . . . who is the glory of our great God and Savior . . . . Jesus Christ.
Of course, I believe that God is the Savior as it was HIS plan of salvation brought about by his Son thus making him the Savior who carried out God's initial plan of salvation.

Anyway the verse does say 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. . . which I believe refers to the glory of God appearing in Jesus Christ.
There are some verses that do back this thought - for the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Matt. 16:27 . . .
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38
It is the glory of God seen in the face of Jesus Christ . . . (2 Cor. 4:6)

I paraphrased some of this from Dustin Smith, PHD - Biblical Unitarian Podcasts - podcast #180 Making Sense of Titus 2:13.
He states that this is an ambiguous passage and gives 3 options and any of the 3 would be legitimately grammatically correct. There is no consensus found in commentaries as to what the passage actually means and he ends with it is unlikely that a consensus will be reached anytime soon!

Right, exactly. If there was any confusion as to who Titus 2:13 was talking about, the context clears it up. There's no way to dance around it and confuse the issue in the beginning of the letter, just as you pointed out:

God is clearly identified as the Father and Jesus Christ the Savior here. No way to confuse the issue, but they still do.

Titus 1
4To Titus, my true child in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

21st Century Reformation on YouTube is a good one as well.

 

[mikesw]

Right, exactly. If there was any confusion as to who Titus 2:13 was talking about, the context clears it up. There's no way to dance around it and confuse the issue in the beginning of the letter, just as you pointed out:

God is clearly identified as the Father and Jesus Christ the Savior here. No way to confuse the issue, but they still do.

Titus 1
4To Titus, my true child in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

21st Century Reformation on YouTube is a good one as well.

oh wow. I think I saw something of that "reformation" group 10 years ago. They had a list of 95 issues as if they were another Martin Luther. However, I do not know if what I saw was the Oneness Apostolic heresy. I forget what that all was about. Hopefully, as you suggest, it was not actually the 21st Century Rejectionist movement

 

[FreeInChrist]

Mikesw finally gave me the insight I was looking for. It's all about them. When you have the trinity, you serve yourself. You are what is focused on. You put yourself first. It makes so much sense to me now. Without the Christ you become the Christ. It becomes your faith and not the faith of Jesus Christ. They hate me because I tell them it's not about them.

“When you have the Trinity, you serve yourself. You put yourself first” — is completely backwards from what the doctrine of the Trinity actually teaches and produces in real Christian life.
Here’s why it’s wrong, straight from Scripture and history:

1. The Trinity Is the Exact Opposite of Self-Centeredness​

The Trinity is three Persons eternally pouring love, glory, and honor toward one another — never toward Self.

Person	What They Do	Verse
The Father	Glorifies the Son	John 17:1–5; 5:22–23
The Son	Glorifies the Father	John 17:4; 14:13
The Spirit	Glorifies the Son	John 16:14
All Three	Live in perfect, selfless communion	John 17:21–24

The Trinity is the ultimate model of self-giving love, not self-focus.

2. The Trinity Destroys Self-Centered Worship​

• 
  
• Unitarian views (one solitary Person) can sometimes slide into a “me-and-God-alone” spirituality.
• 
  
• Trinitarian worship forces us to see God as eternal relationship — and then calls us to live the same way: loving the Father through the Son in the Spirit, and loving others as we have been loved (John 13:34–35).

3. Every Major Trinitarian Revival in History Produced Radical Self-Sacrifice​

Movement	Trinitarian?	Fruit
Early church martyrs	Yes	Gave their lives joyfully
Celtic missionaries (Patrick, Columba)	Yes	Left everything to preach
Reformation & Puritans	Yes	Lived disciplined, others-focused lives
Moravians (1700s)	Yes	Sold themselves into slavery to reach slaves with the gospel
Modern missions explosion (Carey, Hudson Taylor, etc.)	Yes	All deeply Trinitarian

Show me one major self-centered movement that was driven by robust Trinitarian theology. You won’t find it.

4. The Real Biblical Danger Is the Opposite​

People who deny the Trinity (or reduce God to a solitary unit) are the ones who sometimes end up making God a mirror of themselves — because a solitary God has no eternal experience of relationship, submission, or self-giving love.
The Trinity teaches us that God has never been self-centered, even for a nanosecond. Therefore the Christian life is never about putting self first.

In a nutshell:​

The doctrine of the Trinity does not make us self focused... it shows us a God who has eternally lived in self-giving love and then commands us to go and do the same.

So the accusation is not only false — it’s the reverse of the truth.

 

[mikesw]

“When you have the Trinity, you serve yourself. You put yourself first” — is completely backwards from what the doctrine of the Trinity actually teaches and produces in real Christian life.
Here’s why it’s wrong, straight from Scripture and history:

1. The Trinity Is the Exact Opposite of Self-Centeredness​

The Trinity is three Persons eternally pouring love, glory, and honor toward one another — never toward Self.

Person	What They Do	Verse
The Father	Glorifies the Son	John 17:1–5; 5:22–23
The Son	Glorifies the Father	John 17:4; 14:13
The Spirit	Glorifies the Son	John 16:14
All Three	Live in perfect, selfless communion	John 17:21–24

The Trinity is the ultimate model of self-giving love, not self-focus.

2. The Trinity Destroys Self-Centered Worship​

• 
  
• Unitarian views (one solitary Person) can sometimes slide into a “me-and-God-alone” spirituality.
• 
  
• Trinitarian worship forces us to see God as eternal relationship — and then calls us to live the same way: loving the Father through the Son in the Spirit, and loving others as we have been loved (John 13:34–35).

3. Every Major Trinitarian Revival in History Produced Radical Self-Sacrifice​

Movement	Trinitarian?	Fruit
Early church martyrs	Yes	Gave their lives joyfully
Celtic missionaries (Patrick, Columba)	Yes	Left everything to preach
Reformation & Puritans	Yes	Lived disciplined, others-focused lives
Moravians (1700s)	Yes	Sold themselves into slavery to reach slaves with the gospel
Modern missions explosion (Carey, Hudson Taylor, etc.)	Yes	All deeply Trinitarian

Show me one major self-centered movement that was driven by robust Trinitarian theology. You won’t find it.

4. The Real Biblical Danger Is the Opposite​

People who deny the Trinity (or reduce God to a solitary unit) are the ones who sometimes end up making God a mirror of themselves — because a solitary God has no eternal experience of relationship, submission, or self-giving love.
The Trinity teaches us that God has never been self-centered, even for a nanosecond. Therefore the Christian life is never about putting self first.

In a nutshell:​

The doctrine of the Trinity does not make us self focused... it shows us a God who has eternally lived in self-giving love and then commands us to go and do the same.

So the accusation is not only false — it’s the reverse of the truth.

The good part is learning more about the Triune God. The ugly part is the beliefs of the unitarians. That is weird how peterlag thinks that because Jesus is divine that he is not the Christ. I have no idea where that thought of his comes from -- I mean in a logical sense without going into spiritual sources.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The good part is learning more about the Triune God. The ugly part is the beliefs of the unitarians. That is weird how peterlag thinks that because Jesus is divine that he is not the Christ. I have no idea where that thought of his comes from -- I mean in a logical sense without going into spiritual sources.

I know, and he really does bot explain his positions at all... just tears apart anything he disagrees with.

 

[Runningman]

oh wow. I think I saw something of that "reformation" group 10 years ago. They had a list of 95 issues as if they were another Martin Luther. However, I do not know if what I saw was the Oneness Apostolic heresy. I forget what that all was about. Hopefully, as you suggest, it was not actually the 21st Century Rejectionist movement

I understand you reject Biblical Christianity. However, 21st Century Reformation is a Christian ministry which is dedicated to the Father himself as the only one who is truly God, and to Jesus, not as God, but as the Messiah – the Christ of God (John 17:3). They are doing a really good job, too. I highly recommend you spend an evening learning the truth from their videos and podcasts.

 

[Runningman]

Certainly we are concerned about losing Christ and denying him in the fashion of the unitarians.

We're saying the same thing about you. Do you believe the only true God sent Jesus?

 

[Peterlag]

“When you have the Trinity, you serve yourself. You put yourself first” — is completely backwards from what the doctrine of the Trinity actually teaches and produces in real Christian life.
Here’s why it’s wrong, straight from Scripture and history:

1. The Trinity Is the Exact Opposite of Self-Centeredness​

The Trinity is three Persons eternally pouring love, glory, and honor toward one another — never toward Self.

Person	What They Do	Verse
The Father	Glorifies the Son	John 17:1–5; 5:22–23
The Son	Glorifies the Father	John 17:4; 14:13
The Spirit	Glorifies the Son	John 16:14
All Three	Live in perfect, selfless communion	John 17:21–24

The Trinity is the ultimate model of self-giving love, not self-focus.

2. The Trinity Destroys Self-Centered Worship​

• 
  
• Unitarian views (one solitary Person) can sometimes slide into a “me-and-God-alone” spirituality.
• 
  
• Trinitarian worship forces us to see God as eternal relationship — and then calls us to live the same way: loving the Father through the Son in the Spirit, and loving others as we have been loved (John 13:34–35).

3. Every Major Trinitarian Revival in History Produced Radical Self-Sacrifice​

Movement	Trinitarian?	Fruit
Early church martyrs	Yes	Gave their lives joyfully
Celtic missionaries (Patrick, Columba)	Yes	Left everything to preach
Reformation & Puritans	Yes	Lived disciplined, others-focused lives
Moravians (1700s)	Yes	Sold themselves into slavery to reach slaves with the gospel
Modern missions explosion (Carey, Hudson Taylor, etc.)	Yes	All deeply Trinitarian

Show me one major self-centered movement that was driven by robust Trinitarian theology. You won’t find it.

4. The Real Biblical Danger Is the Opposite​

People who deny the Trinity (or reduce God to a solitary unit) are the ones who sometimes end up making God a mirror of themselves — because a solitary God has no eternal experience of relationship, submission, or self-giving love.
The Trinity teaches us that God has never been self-centered, even for a nanosecond. Therefore the Christian life is never about putting self first.

In a nutshell:​

The doctrine of the Trinity does not make us self focused... it shows us a God who has eternally lived in self-giving love and then commands us to go and do the same.

So the accusation is not only false — it’s the reverse of the truth.

Five times you used us or we or their. See above. I highlighted them in red.

 

[mikesw]

We're saying the same thing about you. Do you believe the only true God sent Jesus?

God the Father sent the Son who is also God. Maybe you are starting to realize Christ's divinity.