Your Views on The Trinity

[mikesw]

You're not a Christian. You're an apostate heretic if I understand your backstory correctly. Just trying to help you get back on the right track.

That is so insane of you to create a novel, privately-interpreted, self-absorbed doctrine and say everyone has failed to come to Christ for not following your doctrine. Your doctrine exalts yourself over Christ by claiming you can be equal to him.

If you cannot take your doctrine to a significant group of theologians and scholars and overseers, then you should not be pushing it here.

 

[civic]

You're not a Christian. You're an apostate heretic if I understand your backstory correctly. Just trying to help you get back on the right track.

lets not make things personal, thanks.

Trinitarians are Christians.

 

[amazing grace]

lets not make things personal, thanks.

Trinitarians are Christians.

Unitarians are Christians.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Five times you used us or we or their. See above. I highlighted them in red.

I see only one....

Copied here, which is correct as martyrs is plural therefore THEY gave THEIR lives.

Movement	Trinitarian?	Fruit
Early church martyrs	Yes	Gave their lives joyfully

 

[civic]

Unitarians are Christians.

That’s fine let’s not call each other derogatory names is all I’m asking.

 

[charismaticlady]

I am hones. It's God and Jesus. It's not God who is Jesus.

Peter, why don't you know they are both God? Jesus calls the Father, God; and the Father calls the Son, God in Hebrews 1:8-9

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Jesus said to the disciples, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." The Father is like the mind of the Son, and the Spirit is His power. The three are one. Just like we are both triune beings: 1 Thess. 5:23 spirit, soul and body. Father, Holy Ghost and body.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I, like you do not believe that God is three persons as most Trinitarians believe. I believe the three are one.

Study 1 John 3:9. The reason why Jesus never sinned, is because He has the seed of the Father, just as we have the seed of the Father when we are born again. That is why we cannot commit a sin unto death of lawlessness. We have the mind of Christ.

 

[Runningman]

That’s fine let’s not call each other derogatory names is all I’m asking.

Fair enough then. No more tit-for-tat with the back and forth. Let's just focus on the Scripture.

 

[civic]

Fair enough then. No more tit-for-tat with the back and forth. Let's just focus on the Scripture.

Amen

 

[Peterlag]

Peter, why don't you know they are both God? Jesus calls the Father, God; and the Father calls the Son, God in Hebrews 1:8-9

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Jesus said to the disciples, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." The Father is like the mind of the Son, and the Spirit is His power. The three are one. Just like we are both triune beings: 1 Thess. 5:23 spirit, soul and body. Father, Holy Ghost and body.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I, like you do not believe that God is three persons as most Trinitarians believe. I believe the three are one.

Study 1 John 3:9. The reason why Jesus never sinned, is because He has the seed of the Father, just as we have the seed of the Father when we are born again. That is why we cannot commit a sin unto death of lawlessness. We have the mind of Christ.

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

 

[Peterlag]

I see only one....

Copied here, which is correct as martyrs is plural therefore THEY gave THEIR lives.

Movement	Trinitarian?	Fruit
Early church martyrs	Yes	Gave their lives joyfully

You put the emphasis on yourself so you become centered, the subject, and God the object. You become the doer, the giver, and God becomes the one done for, or the receiver. For justification you believe in human nature, believing you are able by your own effort, by your own works, by your own ethical and moral achievements to please God, and attain righteousness. You then try to seek God, attempting to discover God by your unaided intellect.

You need to understand the emphasis is on God, who is central, the subject, and you are the object because of what God made available to Jesus Christ, which allowed him to have the bond that created the relationship between him and God. God becomes the doer, the giver, and you are the one done for, the recipient. Truth is to not have faith in human nature because human nature is basically sinful and helpless to please God. Truth is God seeking you, and this is God’s revelation of Himself to anyone who will let Him be known to them. You are justified from out of faith, and you already have peace with God, proceeding from our Lord Jesus Christ. You have this justification freely because God’s justification cost Him His only begotten Son, and this is why you cannot earn it from your own achievements.

 

[Peterlag]

So reject He who sent Jesus as the only true God. See, it didn't take much to show that you deny the Father and the Son. Jesus said that believing the only true God sent him is a requirement for eternal life.

John 5
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

What others said after I posted this elsewhere...​

Let's talk about Titus 2:13 our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...​

Paul repeated the same narrative all the way to Titus.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Igor Pogoda
Paul is completely consistent in all these greetings, and once you see the pattern, Titus 2:13 becomes clear and unforced.

Louis Mangan
Well done brother Peter - I copied your references - I wanted to build the same. Thank you!

Rory Moore
Excellent, compilation trinities and oneness should read those repeatedly till they sink in.
(and not deflect. Compiling lists like these establish truth "LINE UPON LINE.."

Seven just today gave it a thumbs up.

 

[Capbook]

It seems you agree that God is immortal, but God is also the First and Last. However, the First and Last died, which is contrary to immortality. Hence "First and Last" can't be used as a divine title. Why? Because God doesn't die. First and Last is a reference to category.

Don't you have any support for "the First and the Last died" phrase as Biblical?
If you interpret "the First and the Last" can't be use as a divine title, you just contradicted yourself, I colored blue above.
That's eisegesis to the utmost, as you also make the Almighty God died, the Alpha and the Omega in Rev 1:8 and 22:13.

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

We should not make the mistake of conflating others with God based on titles alone. Some titles are exclusive to God with there about two dozen names and titles Jesus doesn't share with God. However, there are some titles that Jesus and other humans share with God, but First and Last isn't about being God though.

Let's look at how humans can share titles with God without being God:

1. In Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes is called king of kings, but in 1 Timothy 6:15 we have the Father being referred to as a King of kings.
2. The Father is called Lord of lords in Deuteronomy 10:17, but Abraham is called my Lord is Genesis 24:9,10.
3. The Father called elohim in Genesis 1:1, Moses called elohim in Exodus 7:1, God's sons called elohim in Psalm 82:6.
4. The Father called Shepherd in Psalm 23:1, humans referred to as shepherd in Ezekiel 34 and 1 Samuel 17:34
5. YHWH is identified as the Father in Malachi 2:10 and others called father in Genesis 45:8 for example.
6. The Father called Savior in Isaiah 43:11, other humans called saviors in Judges 3:9 and Obadiah 1:21
7. The Father called Judge in Genesis 18:25, other humans called judges in Deuteronomy 16:18

And the list goes on and on and on: others called son of God, others called holy, others are anointed, others called husband, others called the light of the world, others called the firstborn, etc.

Yet we don't run off and start calling everyone and their mother Lord God Almighty do we? No? So why do you do it to Jesus?

1. Yes, but Artaxerxes is not God.
2. Lord of lords is different from Lord.
3. Yes, but do you believe Moses and God's sons really God?
4. You write uppercase for the Father and lowercase for humans.
5. Same answer with #4.
6. Same answer with #4.
7. You already answered your comparison by differentiating them by their first letter. You learned your lesson well.

But about Jesus, He is the "only begotten God," supported by the oldest manuscripts, two papyri, described as the original wording in Greek.(John 1:18)
Supported by the Almighty God the Father that said to the Son, Your throne, O God is forever and ever.

 

[Capbook]

There's a whole bunch of Bibles that have it's the glory of God that will be appearing. The NIV below also has it that way. You got nothing.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Peterlag, you did not read my request fully, I ask for another verse (outside Titus 2:13 in question) to support your point that mentions the glorious appearing of the Father?

 

[FreeInChrist]

You put the emphasis on yourself so you become centered, the subject, and God the object.

You can take this to the bank.

It is not I with the emphasis on myself... it is the Holy Spirit who is within me and guides me and often does the replies to the threads you and your friends post.

It is He who take care of Himself, and Christ Jesus, and especially the Holy Father....

You said: “Five times you used ‘us’ or ‘we’ or ‘their.’ See above. ”Yes ....because the whole point of the Trinity is that God has never been a solitary individual focused only on Himself. From all eternity the Father loves and glorifies the Son, the Son loves and glorifies the Father, and the Spirit magnifies both — perfect, selfless, other-centered love.

That is the opposite of self-centeredness.

A God who is only one solitary Person has no one to love until He creates. The triune God has always existed in perfect, self-giving love within Himself — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So when Scripture says “God is love” (1 John 4:8), the Trinity is the only way that can be eternally true. A unitarian god can only begin to love once he has creatures to love. The triune God is love ... eternally, before creation ever existed.

That’s why the doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t make us self-centered; it teaches us to live the same way the Father, Son, and Spirit do ... pouring out love toward God and others instead of living for self.

 

[Peterlag]

You can take this to the bank.

It is not I with the emphasis on myself... it is the Holy Spirit who is within me and guides me and often does the replies to the threads you and your friends post.

It is He who take care of Himself, and Christ Jesus, and especially the Holy Father....

You said: “Five times you used ‘us’ or ‘we’ or ‘their.’ See above. ”Yes ....because the whole point of the Trinity is that God has never been a solitary individual focused only on Himself. From all eternity the Father loves and glorifies the Son, the Son loves and glorifies the Father, and the Spirit magnifies both — perfect, selfless, other-centered love.

That is the opposite of self-centeredness.

A God who is only one solitary Person has no one to love until He creates. The triune God has always existed in perfect, self-giving love within Himself — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So when Scripture says “God is love” (1 John 4:8), the Trinity is the only way that can be eternally true. A unitarian god can only begin to love once he has creatures to love. The triune God is love ... eternally, before creation ever existed.

That’s why the doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t make us self-centered; it teaches us to live the same way the Father, Son, and Spirit do ... pouring out love toward God and others instead of living for self.

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

Peterlag, you did not read my request fully, I ask for another verse (outside Titus 2:13 in question) to support your point that mentions the glorious appearing of the Father?

I read it and gave you the best response.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

I assure you I do know.

I know who came where and in what form.

I have no need to test the Holy Spirit.

Here’s a short, biblical reply you can post word-for-word:

The Spirit from God says both — not one or the other.

1 John 4:2–3“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God… and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.”

The Greek literally says “Jesus Christ come in the flesh” (Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἐληλυθότα ἐν σαρκί).The same John who wrote that verse also wrote:

John 1:14 – “The Word was God… and the Word became flesh.”
1 John 5:20 – “Jesus Christ… this is the true God and eternal life.”

So the true Spirit confesses that Jesus Christ (who is God) came in the flesh.The false spirit separates the two or denies either one.

The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus as Lord and God in human flesh (John 16:14; 20:28; Acts 5:3–4).

 

[Peterlag]

I assure you I do know.

I know who came where and in what form.

I have no need to test the Holy Spirit.

Here’s a short, biblical reply you can post word-for-word:

The Spirit from God says both — not one or the other.

1 John 4:2–3“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God… and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.”

The Greek literally says “Jesus Christ come in the flesh” (Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἐληλυθότα ἐν σαρκί).The same John who wrote that verse also wrote:

John 1:14 – “The Word was God… and the Word became flesh.”
1 John 5:20 – “Jesus Christ… this is the true God and eternal life.”

So the true Spirit confesses that Jesus Christ (who is God) came in the flesh.The false spirit separates the two or denies either one.

The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus as Lord and God in human flesh (John 16:14; 20:28; Acts 5:3–4).

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it?

Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it.

 

[Runningman]

What others said after I posted this elsewhere...​

Let's talk about Titus 2:13 our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...​

Paul repeated the same narrative all the way to Titus.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Igor Pogoda
Paul is completely consistent in all these greetings, and once you see the pattern, Titus 2:13 becomes clear and unforced.

Louis Mangan
Well done brother Peter - I copied your references - I wanted to build the same. Thank you!

Rory Moore
Excellent, compilation trinities and oneness should read those repeatedly till they sink in.
(and not deflect. Compiling lists like these establish truth "LINE UPON LINE.."

Seven just today gave it a thumbs up.

Sometimes they'll use versions of Titus 2:13 that have been translated to contain the "granville sharp rule" it contradicts the broader context about how Jesus isn't Jesus. So Titus 2:13 is also something I quote.

It is very clear that Paul wasn't trying to conflate Jesus with God.

Titus 1 (NIV)
4To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

 

[Runningman]

Don't you have any support for "the First and the Last died" phrase as Biblical?
If you interpret "the First and the Last" can't be use as a divine title, you just contradicted yourself, I colored blue above.
That's eisegesis to the utmost, as you also make the Almighty God died, the Alpha and the Omega in Rev 1:8 and 22:13.

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

1. Yes, but Artaxerxes is not God.
2. Lord of lords is different from Lord.
3. Yes, but do you believe Moses and God's sons really God?
4. You write uppercase for the Father and lowercase for humans.
5. Same answer with #4.
6. Same answer with #4.
7. You already answered your comparison by differentiating them by their first letter. You learned your lesson well.

But about Jesus, He is the "only begotten God," supported by the oldest manuscripts, two papyri, described as the original wording in Greek.(John 1:18)
Supported by the Almighty God the Father that said to the Son, Your throne, O God is forever and ever.

Yes, the Bible says the First and Last died. So saying Jesus is God because of being the First and Last isn't a very convincing argument. I know that God can't die, do you?

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.