Your Views on The Trinity

[Runningman]

Ok, is this a confirmation that you do not believe the Father's words? (Heb 1:8,9)

1. Yes, God is immortal, "the First and the Last" in Isaiah 41:4
2. As to Jesus Divine nature will not die, but His human flesh died.(1Pet 3:18)
3. Yes, (Isaiah 41:4) The LORD Almighty God said it.
4. First and the last refers to the Father and also to Jesus' Divine nature will not die, (Isa 41:4, Rev 1:17, 22:13,16 ) Jesus human flesh died.(1Pet 3:18)

Now, prove that "the First and the Last died" is a Biblical phrase.
Or you just added words to the Bible an alarming deed. "If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book." (Rev 22:18)

It seems you agree that God is immortal, but God is also the First and Last. However, the First and Last died, which is contrary to immortality. Hence "First and Last" can't be used as a divine title. Why? Because God doesn't die. First and Last is a reference to category.

We should not make the mistake of conflating others with God based on titles alone. Some titles are exclusive to God with there about two dozen names and titles Jesus doesn't share with God. However, there are some titles that Jesus and other humans share with God, but First and Last isn't about being God though.

Let's look at how humans can share titles with God without being God:

1. In Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes is called king of kings, but in 1 Timothy 6:15 we have the Father being referred to as a King of kings.
2. The Father is called Lord of lords in Deuteronomy 10:17, but Abraham is called my Lord is Genesis 24:9,10.
3. The Father called elohim in Genesis 1:1, Moses called elohim in Exodus 7:1, God's sons called elohim in Psalm 82:6.
4. The Father called Shepherd in Psalm 23:1, humans referred to as shepherd in Ezekiel 34 and 1 Samuel 17:34
5. YHWH is identified as the Father in Malachi 2:10 and others called father in Genesis 45:8 for example.
6. The Father called Savior in Isaiah 43:11, other humans called saviors in Judges 3:9 and Obadiah 1:21
7. The Father called Judge in Genesis 18:25, other humans called judges in Deuteronomy 16:18

And the list goes on and on and on: others called son of God, others called holy, others are anointed, others called husband, others called the light of the world, others called the firstborn, etc.

Yet we don't run off and start calling everyone and their mother Lord God Almighty do we? No? So why do you do it to Jesus?

 

[amazing grace]

Is Titus 2:13 talking about the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ as in this phrase: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' OR Is it speaking about the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ as in this phrase 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God Savior, Jesus Christ.'?

 

[Runningman]

Is Titus 2:13 talking about the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ as in this phrase: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' OR Is it speaking about the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ as in this phrase 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God Savior, Jesus Christ.'?

I like to refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:14 when they confuse God with being Jesus in Titus 2:13. It reads like God is bringing Jesus back. If God were Jesus, he would bring himself back, not receive a bringing back [by God.] So the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus are two different persons.

There is God, then there is Jesus and those God brings with Jesus.

1 Thess. 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

 

[Peterlag]

They think that after Paul opened every letter by singling the Father out as the only God that it means others are God too. They have a funny way of looking at things.

Mikesw finally gave me the insight I was looking for. It's all about them. When you have the trinity, you serve yourself. You are what is focused on. You put yourself first. It makes so much sense to me now. Without the Christ you become the Christ. It becomes your faith and not the faith of Jesus Christ. They hate me because I tell them it's not about them.

 

[amazing grace]

I like to refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:14 when they confuse God with being Jesus in Titus 2:13. It reads like God is bringing Jesus back. If God were Jesus, he would bring himself back, not receive a bringing back [by God.] So the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus are two different persons.

There is God, then there is Jesus and those God brings with Jesus.

1 Thess. 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

I can see where you could draw that conclusion.

Titus does clearly distinguish between the two God and Jesus - Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ . . .
and again in verse 4: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Notice in verse 4 Christ Jesus is called our Savior . . . but right in the previous verse God (the Father, verse 4). God is referred to as the Savior 3 times - Christ Jesus 1 time and then we have Titus 2:13 which mentions both . . . BUT it does not read: 'the appearing of our great God and Savior'; it reads 'the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior'. . . . who is the glory of our great God and Savior . . . . Jesus Christ.
Of course, I believe that God is the Savior as it was HIS plan of salvation brought about by his Son thus making him the Savior who carried out God's initial plan of salvation.

Anyway the verse does say 'the appearing of the GLORY of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. . . which I believe refers to the glory of God appearing in Jesus Christ.
There are some verses that do back this thought - for the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Matt. 16:27 . . .
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38
It is the glory of God seen in the face of Jesus Christ . . . (2 Cor. 4:6)

I paraphrased some of this from Dustin Smith, PHD - Biblical Unitarian Podcasts - podcast #180 Making Sense of Titus 2:13.
He states that this is an ambiguous passage and gives 3 options and any of the 3 would be legitimately grammatically correct. There is no consensus found in commentaries as to what the passage actually means and he ends with it is unlikely that a consensus will be reached anytime soon!

 

[Peterlag]

Peterlag, can you cite another verse to support your point that mentions the glorious appearing of the Father?

There's a whole bunch of Bibles that have it's the glory of God that will be appearing. The NIV below also has it that way. You got nothing.

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,