And firstborn need not indicate one was the first one born
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
- Start date
MTMattie
Active member
But the man who bled blood was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus was already alive before creation...
First answer this.... NLT Matt 1-20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
So Jesus WAS conceived by the Holy Spirit....
Then... If Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and Jesus was created by God before there was even light on the earth....
IS THIS PROOF THAT THIS WAS A FORM OF REINCARNATION.
Careful... think about it.
You have God alledgedly creating.... How. I wonder, Jesus first. Then you have the Holy Spirit from whom Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Something is truly amiss here......
MTMattie
Active member
Alright, I'll consider myself somewhat quasi-corrected.
After the Got Questions explanations... though.... are what everyday people believe the term means as applicable to life.
Got Questions
In the book of Hebrews, Christ is “heir of all things” (Hebrews 1:2) and God’s “firstborn into the world” (Hebrews 1:6). Just as the firstborn son is head over his earthly family after his father, Jesus Christ is head of the body of Christ—the church—after God the Father (Ephesians 1:20–23; Colossians 1:18, Hebrews 2:10–12). Just as the firstborn son receives the greatest inheritance from his father, Jesus Christ receives the world as His inheritance. God says to His Son, “Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the whole earth as your possession” (Psalm 2:8).
As a point of clarification, the term firstborn in relation to Jesus does not suggest that He is a created being. The Son of God has existed for all eternity along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is fully God (John 1:1–3). He took on human flesh so that He could become our Savior to serve as the Mediator between humankind and God (1 Timothy 2:5). When Scripture refers to Christ as the “firstborn,” the message is that Christ’s supremacy, sovereignty, and priority extend over all things and all other beings.
In paying for our sin, Jesus Christ suffered death, but He also became “the firstborn from the dead” (Revelation 1:5); that is, He conquered death and is the first person to ever be “born” to eternal life after dying. By God’s grace, through faith in Jesus, we, too, can receive eternal life (Ephesians 2:1–10; John 3:16–18). Through His death and resurrection, Jesus is the “firstfruits” who guarantees the future resurrection and eternal life of many other sons and daughters of God (1 Corinthians 15:20–23). As He Himself said, “Because I live, you also will live” (John 14:19).
Again:
Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.
Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.
Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).
BUT NOTICE: When Psalm 89:27 says "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth"
THAT IS FUTURE TENSE. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN LONG AFTER THE CREATION HAS TAKEN PLACE AND THEREFORE
I still say the application of firstborn before then is misplaced.
firstborn /fûrst′bôrn′/
adjective
- First in order of birth; born first.
- First brought forth; first in the order of birth; eldest; hence, most excellent; most distinguished or exalted.
"the firstborn child"
Similar: eldest
Firstborn Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Oct 4, 2024The meaning of FIRSTBORN is first brought forth : eldesthttps://www.dictionary.com › browse › firstborn
FIRSTBORN Definition & Meaning - Dictionary.com
Firstborn definition: first in the order of birth; eldest.Firstborn - Wikipedia
Firstborn. A firstborn (also known as an eldest child or sometimes firstling) is the first child born to in the birth order of a couple through childbirth. Historically, the role of the firstborn child has been socially significant, particularly for a firstborn son in patriarchal societies.https://www.britannica.com › dictionary › firstborn
Firstborn Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary
Britannica Dictionary definition of FIRSTBORN: born first. their firstborn [=eldest, oldest] child [+] more examples [-] hide examples [+] Example sentences [-] Hide examples — firstborn noun, plural firstborns
Runningman
Well-known member
Sure, Jesus has been seen numerous times post-resurrection and even after he was taken to heaven. He will also have a visible return when God brings him back. Do you contest any of this?
MTMattie
Active member
You had asked " How dare Paul speak of Jesus as a visible image of God who bled on the cross rather than an invisible God? Let's get to the heart of the matter. Is Jesus visible or invisible right now?
And I replied " Right now? I dont see him do you?" Which is factually true.
You came back with
Do I contest any.? Just the wording of "when God brings him back."
Don't care where you got it from it is poor grammar because in order to bring something one needs to be coming with. BRING is to convey, lead, carry, or cause to come along with one toward the place from which the action is being regarded.
I do agree that when Jesus returns He will be see by everyone.
One of the main reasons I say the preterist view of his return was false. For most claim he came back but it was a spiritual coming and no one saw... or He appeared to only a few and in Matt He said
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
That did not happen in 70AD
But I digress
And I replied " Right now? I dont see him do you?" Which is factually true.
You came back with
That is not what you asked.
Do I contest any.? Just the wording of "when God brings him back."
Don't care where you got it from it is poor grammar because in order to bring something one needs to be coming with. BRING is to convey, lead, carry, or cause to come along with one toward the place from which the action is being regarded.
I do agree that when Jesus returns He will be see by everyone.
Revelation 1:7 says, “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.”
One of the main reasons I say the preterist view of his return was false. For most claim he came back but it was a spiritual coming and no one saw... or He appeared to only a few and in Matt He said
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
That did not happen in 70AD
But I digress
This from your post
as explained by
Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
the conjunction for and what follows explains why he is firstborn
Sorry that is made impossible by
John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.
Stop listening to the watchtower and believe God
Are you denying Jesus stated he came down descended from heaven?
John 6:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 3:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So what will you do?
Deny Jesus is the son of God?
John 10:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
deny coming down is descending?
John 3:13 (ESV) — 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Runningman
Well-known member
I am not a preterist, but I understand why they believe that. I am honest enough to admit what they say about that is partially plausible. However, I am a futurist and I believe Jesus was be brought back to earth by God. As far as the wording "When God brings him back" goes, I am just basing that on what Paul taught people. I'll show you.
1 Thess. 4
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Runningman
Well-known member
So none of the verses say the "Son of God" descended from heaven. Do you know when Jesus became the Son of God?
MTMattie
Active member
I see it as it not being Jesus.... which is the first problem . I see it as the Word... who eventually became Jesus in the flesh.
It DOES say this ",all things were created by him, and for him:" but the him that did the creating was never Jesus. Jesus did not enter things until
Matt 1-21"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Joseph was to name Him Jesus.
furthered by 22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." Which is still in Matthew.
Then Luke
1-30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
furthered by
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
YES, THE WORD WAS AT THE VERY BEGINNING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND YAHWEH AND THEY WERE GOD..
But the Word was not Jesus until 4000 plus years later
MTMattie
Active member
OKAY
God didn't create in Mary's womb, he put Jesus lifeforce in Mary's womb. He was Michael prior to earth.
Through him= another did it. Take an English lesson.
Affinity
Member
There is no biblical evidence to equate Michael the archangel with Jesus. To the contrary, Jesus and Michael are two different personages. Michael is the highest of the angels - an order of created beings while Jesus is the uncreated Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son.
Wake up he was the agent the Father used
All things were made through him and nothing was made without him
You need the English lesson as you allowed the watchtower think for you.
Can you deny he came down from heaven
If he came down from heaven he pre-existed his human birth and your doctrine is shown to be an error
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the trumpet of God( announcing this ride( Rev 6:2) and with the voice of the archangel= his voice. Or do you think Michael loans Jesus his voice?
Rev 19:11 the continuation of the ride of the white horse-Jesus is named--Rev 6:2= the war in heaven-Michael is named yet he receives his crown= only Jesus is Gods appointed king and will get the crown. Rev 12 explains Rev 6:2=the war in heaven( ride of the white horse) and the birth of Gods kingdom( he receives his crown)
Daniel 12:1--Michael stands up for Gods chosen in the last days))))= as Gods appointed king.
Dan 7:13-15--One like a son of man= (a created being) is appointed a kingship.
Heb 1:4-- Clearly shows if not given the name Jesus from God would be equal to the angels.
Psalm 45:7--You loved righteousness and hated wickedness that is why God, your God anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your (((partners( fellows))))= angels.
100% evidence Michael is who God sent-he sent his very best.
Larry
Member
Lets add this:
Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael (or any other angel, for that matter). Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The hierarchy of heavenly beings is made clear in this passage—angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshiped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel (not worthy of worship). The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6).
Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1, 14). Michael the archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.
Got?
But there was a continuity of persons
A name change does not impact that
The Word became Jesus Christ
